A luthier's experience with tonewoods

[Doctor J]

Do acrylic or carbon graphite basses show more tonal consistency across multiple instruments? Anyone got two fully carbon Statii out there? 🙂

[tegs07]

Tonewood = generic name for a shed load of woods used to make instruments.

Does wood have acoustic properties = yes

Will one wood vs another magically transform your instrument into a legendary syren like creature = no

will it make you more sexually appealing = no

Is there a load of marketing hype = sure that’s what people do to sell stuff.

is it still known as tonewood by luthiers and guitar companies the world over = yes

Edited March 4, 2021 by tegs07

[Doctor J]

Yeah, I know, but I'm asking about toneacrylic and tonegraphite now 😉

[Maude]

21 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

Tonewood = generic name for a shed load of woods used to make instruments.

I'm sad/bored enough to have done a little research. It appears that any wood used to build a guitar is labelled a tonewood, regardless of any actual tonal properties it may, or may not, have. So as long as it is structurally capable of being used to make a guitar, it's a tonewood. It's as stupid as that. 

So when adverts/luthiers blither on about magical tonewoods then as long as they've built an instrument with it it's a tonewood, and by default means that every guitar or bass ever built from wood is built using a tonewood. 

So let's just call it wood. 

 

I also found out the best way to get spalting started in a wood is to pee on it and store in damp, humid conditions to let the bacterial growth develop. 

Mmmm 'Tonepiss'. 

🙂

[Maude]

4 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

Yeah, I know, but I'm asking about toneacrylic and tonegraphite now 😉

By the tonewood label, if it's used to make an instrument then it's worthy of the tone prefix. 

[tegs07]

5 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

Yeah, I know, but I'm asking about toneacrylic and tonegraphite now 😉

You may have discovered a niche marketing opportunity for yourself 

[Doctor J]

9 minutes ago, Maude said:

By the tonewood label, if it's used to make an instrument then it's worthy of the tone prefix. 

For sure. I installed a tonebrass nut on a bass recently, along with tonestrap tonelocks.

[deepbass5]

25 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

Yeah, I know, but I'm asking about toneacrylic and tonegraphite now

Then someone goes and raps a nice piece of tonewood in carbon fiber so you can't tell what its made from and it sounds great

But is it better than a solid resin one, I need more basses, to prove these theories beyond doubt.

[tegs07]

Possibly it’s called Tonewood so luthiers don’t get a load of 2x4 beams delivered when they make their order. Maybe due to how the wood is graded, sawn and shaped. Whatever the reason that’s it’s name.

[Maude]

2 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

Possibly it’s called Tonewood so luthiers don’t get a load of 2x4 beams delivered when they make their order. Maybe due to how the wood is graded, sawn and shaped. Whatever the reason that’s it’s name.

But if they made a guitar from those 2x4 beams then they would become tonewood. 

I looked up oak as that should have the structural properties needed to make a solid body guitar. It does but it isn't normally used primarily because it's very heavy and hard, and not particularly pretty. But this is the silly bit, and the phrase that keeps cropping up, "It can be used as a tonewood".What do you mean "as a tonewood"? Is it a tonewood or not? Basically if it's made into a guitar then it's a tonewood, but if that same piece was made into a stool seat it remains just plain old oak. 

It's just a stupid, pretentious load of nonsense dreamt up to make a fairly mundane material appear somehow special. 

[MartinB]

2x4 beams, you say?

La Baye 2x4 😆

[deepbass5]

If you play in a Folk band, then it is acceptable to have a bass made from Oak, Elm or Beech. It'll sounds crap but you'll probably get away with it due to all the other odd sounds from whistles and squeeze boxes wafting round the pub garden.

[Dad3353]

My Dad didn't like to use oak for furniture, toys or even turning (for candlesticks...), as it 'moves'. Even when seasoned, and over long periods, once 'worked', it would twist or bow, as the cellular structure adapted itself to its new form. Difficult to get regular, stable results (a pair of candlesticks, with one slightly bent, was often the result. A set of banister rails would be nigh on impossible to produce...). I don't think oak would be good for instruments at all, regardless of its tonal qualities. Drums can be made from oak (especially snares...), but they're not from large slabs. Mostly ply's or blocks glued up.
On another aspect: there are many excellent archtop guitars with ply tables (my Hofner Comittee being one...). 'Tone' ply, obviously. 
Just sayin'.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Dad3353

[Killed_by_Death]

2 hours ago, tegs07 said:

is it still known as tonewood by luthiers and guitar companies the world over

No one around here calls it that, & I've heard the local luthier talking about woods, w/o ever using 'tone'.

You'd only call it 'tone' wood to your wood supplier if you wanted them to increase the price.

In the local luthier's shop is the first time I heard someone say BASS wood & pronounce it like the fish. I had always assumed it was pronounced like low-frequency notes.

 

I'm reminded of how some people think Christmas is celebrated in every corner of the world, it's not.

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Killed_by_Death
spelling

[Doctor J]

40 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

In the local luthier's shop is the first time I heard someone say BASS wood & pronounce it like the fish. I had always assumed it was pronounced like low-frequency notes.

Perhaps we should call the instruments Tonebasses to finally end the confusion?

But then, you might end up with a tonebasswood Tonebass in your hands, which is a bit of a mouthful. Hmmm... it's tricky.

[grandad]

https://www.soundunlimited.co.uk/blogs/articles/guitar_tone_woods

A little more depth:

http://tonewooddatasource.weebly.com/technical-data.html

 

[WinterMute]

So, I'm think of getting Alan at ACG to build me a 5 string fretless as I can't find a 20th Anni SR5 fretless for love nor money, this naturally led me into a bit of research about woods and construction and I've been reading a lot about this over the past week. It seems to me that a number of things are true:

Solid bodied instruments are less (or not at all) susceptible to variations in tone depending on what they're made of.

Rigidity is key and acoustic instrument make better use of the tonal variations in woods as they are intrinsically weaker and so less rigid, which seems to allow the wood to resonate with the chambering/hollow bodies. 

Most of the "tone" in an electric instrument comes from the pups, the pre-amp, the amp/effects and player.

Rigid is an excellent word.

All that said, my 20th Anni SR5 fretted doesn't sound like any other SR5 I've played, and this may be due to the use of a mahogany "tone block" that the pups and neck connect to, or it may just be the Alnico pup and the new pre EB put in the thing. Could also be magic, I don't know.

I've asked Alan a few questions, he seems to know what he's doing.

[tegs07]

1 hour ago, Killed_by_Death said:

I'm reminded of how some people think Christmas is celebrated in every corner of the world, it's not.

 

I would hazard a guess that Christians world wide will celebrate Christmas in the same way that Muslims world wide will celebrate Eid.

Anyhow have grown weary with this debate now. Tonewood is a widely recognised generic term for wood used in instrument making. If you all want to call it wood that is fine. 
 

PS not sure where on the East Coast USA you are but here is but one of many New York Luthiers advertising his exotic tonewood guitars:

https://barlowguitars.com/

Edited March 4, 2021 by tegs07
Spelling

[ezbass]

I was watching a video of Scott Devine interviewing the great, Bobby Vega. Talk turned to his famous ‘shark’, 61 J bass. Scott asked what wood it was made of, Bobby replied, “Brown.” Utter genius.

Edited March 4, 2021 by ezbass

[Killed_by_Death]

52 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

world wide will celebrate

My assertion was that they're NOT world-wide.

 

52 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

If you all want to call it wood that is fine. 

Yay, we can call it what it is!

😀

Edited March 4, 2021 by Killed_by_Death
spelling

[Phil Starr]

I wonder if the wood you use gives you colouration 

[deepbass5]

I am genuinely surprised at how many people are sighting Pups and pre-amps where good tone comes from, I am open to that but have tried to improve basses which don't speak well by adding new pups and changing EQ,s but still not turned them into a good instrument. I use John East pre-amps because they primarily give me flexibility playing live when jumping from number to number in a set, without turning round and changing amp settings. Not because the make the bass sound better, that, i believe is in the wood and construction.

The only exception to that was because John did me a deal on two pre's one for a bass with scratchy pots that needed replacing anyway and the other was for my M Bass as i wanted a para mid and the top end hi and hi mids didn't speak well. It did help it breath better in the top end, but the bass never got the gig over my Shuker, But interestingly 8 years on it has improved so much with age and gigging, it now sounds better than ever, and is now the last i would sell. So to me even though I am sure Marleaux select the best quality tone woods, after construction basses all need to be played so all those woods can work together in harmony, some more than others I guess.

Hope its not just that set of SIT strings i haven't used before ?

 

[WinterMute]

9 minutes ago, deepbass5 said:

I am genuinely surprised at how many people are sighting Pups and pre-amps where good tone comes from, I am open to that but have tried to improve basses which don't speak well by adding new pups and changing EQ,s but still not turned them into a good instrument. I use John East pre-amps because they primarily give me flexibility playing live when jumping from number to number in a set, without turning round and changing amp settings. Not because the make the bass sound better, that, i believe is in the wood and construction.

The only exception to that was because John did me a deal on two pre's one for a bass with scratchy pots that needed replacing anyway and the other was for my M Bass as i wanted a para mid and the top end hi and hi mids didn't speak well. It did help it breath better in the top end, but the bass never got the gig over my Shuker, But interestingly 8 years on it has improved so much with age and gigging, it now sounds better than ever, and is now the last i would sell. So to me even though I am sure Marleaux select the best quality tone woods, after construction basses all need to be played so all those woods can work together in harmony, some more than others I guess.

Hope its not just that set of SIT strings i haven't used before ?

I think there's no doubt that a very well constructed instrument will show off the tone in pups and pre's better than a slab of plywood and some razor wire... It's also true to say that if I pick up the bass of doom or Geddy's Jazz, I won't sound anything like Pastorius or Geddy Lee, tone resides in the combination of the player and the bass, and the bass is the sum of it's parts, some are better than that sum, and some are worse.

[tauzero]

23 hours ago, BassTractor said:

One would hope your sarcastic apology was written in the lightest of tones. 

Naturally.

[tauzero]

14 hours ago, Muzz said:

More florid obfuscation from the Alembic 'Premium Woods' page: 'Indian Rosewood has a rich look to match its rich tone. As with other Rosewoods, the complex tone is both bright and dark.'

So it's, erm, bright and dark? I think the only certain thing we can say is it's Premium, which means it's gonna cost you to find out...ditto Koa:

'Koa has a mellow tone, with big, plump low end response. Better for fingerstyle playing as a slapper will have to fight its mellow nature (but we certainly have heard players who can overcome the default tone of Koa).'

Ahhhh, right...better for fingerstyle...unless you slap it, of course...then it's OK, too...

These Premium Woods are a right old tonal conundrum...they do look nice, tho... 

You just know what the copywriter's favourite book is, don't you?

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way".