Bass Amp/FRFR cab to also be PA

[SumOne]

I'm hoping to trade my PA amp and speakers for a Bass Amp and Cab that can also be used for PA.

It seems like the Barefaced super compact and big baby 2 would do a good job of this, both are advertised as FRFR and can be used for PA, and have a range of roughly 30Hz to 20kHz. (and possibly the Barefaced super compact- but that only goes up to 4kHz, perhaps not high enough?). 

Then I'd need need a Bass Amp that can do 'clean' sounds when using it for the PA- I'll have the DJ mixer to control the PA type frequencies that the Amp doesn't have controls for, but do Bass Amps actually push out the higher frequencies or will I need to keep my PA poweramp?

.......possibly it's too much compromise and I'm best off getting a specific Bass Amp and Cabs and keeping the PA setup separate.

[jrixn1]

5 minutes ago, SumOne said:

I'm hoping to trade my PA amp and speakers for a Bass Amp and Cab that can also be used for PA.

Why? Many people are moving the other way; i.e. get rid of bass gear in favour of PA speakers.   You can use a bass preamp pedal into a PA speaker if it's just the EQ controls that you are missing.

 

[SumOne]

9 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

Why? Many people are moving the other way; i.e. get rid of bass gear in favour of PA speakers.   You can use a bass preamp pedal into a PA speaker if it's just the EQ controls that you are missing.

 

Yeah, good point. My Bass doesn't sound great through my current PA setup (via a Bass Simplifier preamp pedal), but I think that's down to my PA setup being a bit shoddy (it sounds good at home through studio monitor speakers). Perhaps getting a decent PA setup will actually cover everything just as well as getting a Bass Amp/Cabs that can work as PA. 

Edited March 11, 2021 by SumOne

[SumOne]

Have just seen a similar topic https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/404764-the-frfr-option/page/3/#comments

 

I'm now thinking that the active FRFR speaker option is a good one. I've got compressor, tube overdrive, cab sim, and DI pedals so can probably bypass needing a Bass specific Amp and Cab, possibly just use a active FRFR speaker- that can also be used for PA stuff and replace my shoddy setup.

A good option seem to be the Mackie SRM650 which goes down to 39Hz. At £427 it's a fair bit cheaper than getting a Bass Amps and Cab. 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by SumOne

[SumOne]

........sorry, more searching around and I can see this has been discussed a lot already. https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/315455-interesting-frfr-story/

 

[jrixn1]

I've used Mackie speakers in the past, although not their current line.  If it were me, I'd stick with the forum favourites of RCF or QSC.

I replaced my Shuttle 9.2 and Big Baby 2 with an RCF 732A.  Two Big Baby 2s and a Crown power amp will come to around £2000.  Whereas two RCF 732As will be £1200.

Or if used ok to save a bit more, what about this pair of K12s (1st gen) for £960: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QSC-K12-Speakers-Pair-Active-12/324503068352 
 

[SumOne]

12 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

I've used Mackie speakers in the past, although not their current line.  If it were me, I'd stick with the forum favourites of RCF or QSC.

I replaced my Shuttle 9.2 and Big Baby 2 with an RCF 732A.  Two Big Baby 2s and a Crown power amp will come to around £2000.  Whereas two RCF 732As will be £1200.

Or if used ok to save a bit more, what about this pair of K12s (1st gen) for £960: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QSC-K12-Speakers-Pair-Active-12/324503068352 
 

Nice one.  Yeah,  I'll spend a while looking into it a bit more, that Mackie does seem to have quite a few negative reviews about long-term reliability. If I'm saving £ on not getting an Amp then I'm probably best off getting something a bit higher end like the RCF or QSC to do well with Bass.

Edited March 11, 2021 by SumOne

[chris_b]

1 hour ago, jrixn1 said:

Why? Many people are moving the other way; i.e. get rid of bass gear in favour of PA speakers.   You can use a bass preamp pedal into a PA speaker if it's just the EQ controls that you are missing.

Many?

I don't know of any numbers involved (and I suspect no one does), but I would expect 99% of the bass world is carrying on as before, with amps and cabs.

[SumOne]

The best options seem to be:

 

RCF 715 

• £486
• 1400 watts
• 45 Hz - 20 kHz
• 15" Woofer and 1.75" voice coil

RCF 732A

• £600
• 1400 watts
• 50 Hz - 20 kHz
• 12" Woofer and 3" voice coil

 

RCF 735

• £720
• 1400 watts
• 45 Hz - 20 kHz
• 15" Woofer and 3" voice coil

 

.....between the 715 and 735 it seems quite big price differences with small differences in speaker sizes. @jrixn1 any particular reason you went for the 732A?

Or, other good option seems to be:

QSC K12.2

• £675
• 2000 watts
• 50 Hz - 20 kHz
• 12" woofer and 1.4" voice coil

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by SumOne

[jrixn1]

1 hour ago, SumOne said:

.....between the 715 and 735 it seems quite big price differences with small differences in speaker sizes. @jrixn1 any particular reason you went for the 732A?

Since my Big Baby 2 was 12" and I knew that worked for me, I figured if the RCF was as good as they said, there should be no reason to have to move up to a larger/heavier 15" (RCF 735 or 745) just to retain the same functionality.

I was also convinced by the explanations of the larger voice coil advantages; so I took the 732 over the 712.

If the 732 had turned out not to be any good, I'd have returned it and stuck with Barefaced.

Being very happy with the 732, I've not tried a 735 or 745 but by all accounts they are beasts!

The QSC K-series are good too.  My band have K10 and to me they are just very slightly harsh at very high volumes.

[SumOne]

3 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

Since my Big Baby 2 was 12" and I knew that worked for me, I figured if the RCF was as good as they said, there should be no reason to have to move up to a larger/heavier 15" (RCF 735 or 745) just to retain the same functionality.

I was also convinced by the explanations of the larger voice coil advantages; so I took the 732 over the 712.

If the 732 had turned out not to be any good, I'd have returned it and stuck with Barefaced.

Being very happy with the 732, I've not tried a 735 or 745 but by all accounts they are beasts!

The QSC K-series are good too.  My band have K10 and to me they are just very slightly harsh at very high volumes.

Nice one, cheers. 

[Jack]

On 11/03/2021 at 15:00, SumOne said:

The best options seem to be:

 

RCF 715 

• £486
• 1400 watts
• 45 Hz - 20 kHz
• 15" Woofer and 1.75" voice coil

RCF 732A

• £600
• 1400 watts
• 50 Hz - 20 kHz
• 12" Woofer and 3" voice coil

 

RCF 735

• £720
• 1400 watts
• 45 Hz - 20 kHz
• 15" Woofer and 3" voice coil

 

.....between the 715 and 735 it seems quite big price differences with small differences in speaker sizes. @jrixn1 any particular reason you went for the 732A?

Or, other good option seems to be:

QSC K12.2

• £675
• 2000 watts
• 50 Hz - 20 kHz
• 12" woofer and 1.4" voice coil

 

Slightly tangential but I tried one of our (great for pa tops) 712s as a bass amp on a gig and it really didn't cut it. I'd be similarly wary of the 715 based on that experience. Either the 732 or 735 should do just fine. Despite us having and loving a full RCF pa (712 tops, 705 subs and 310 mons) I went qsc K12.2 for bass and couldn't be happier. 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Jack

[Paul S]

Switching to a FRFR set up has been, for me, much simpler and actually quite liberating   I am not particularly technically minded and found a lot of the minutiae about amps/cabs etc very confusing.

My 3 piece blues band needed to upgrade the pa from the archaic vintage gear we managed to cobble together.  After following the stuff on here I persuaded the guys to go with 2 x RCF EVOX 8 V2 and I go straight into the desk from my pedal board.  It sounds amazing, especially when the drums go through it although we don't do that every time.  Not so much volume but balance and depth.  The great thing about this set up, I I confess I don't fully understand, is you can position it behind you so it removes the need for monitors and makes the whole set up and playing area very simple.  Guitarist generally uses his amp, mind you, as he prefers the valve tone from it.  

For other band situations/home practice I bought the RCF 732A. So 'my' sound is totally portable.

[Chienmortbb]

Whether you like a cab and head or a PA speaker, the fact that you are happy with your setup is the main thing.

[Chienmortbb]

22 hours ago, SumOne said:

I'm hoping to trade my PA amp and speakers for a Bass Amp and Cab that can also be used for PA.

It seems like the Barefaced super compact and big baby 2 would do a good job of this, both are advertised as FRFR and can be used for PA, and have a range of roughly 30Hz to 20kHz. (and possibly the Barefaced super compact- but that only goes up to 4kHz, perhaps not high enough?). 

Then I'd need need a Bass Amp that can do 'clean' sounds when using it for the PA- I'll have the DJ mixer to control the PA type frequencies that the Amp doesn't have controls for, but do Bass Amps actually push out the higher frequencies or will I need to keep my PA poweramp?

.......possibly it's too much compromise and I'm best off getting a specific Bass Amp and Cabs and keeping the PA setup separate.

I will try to give my experience and of course it is only my experience. A cabinet with a single driver cannot cover both PA and Bass duties and I feel I am missing something playing through a Barefaced Super Compact. On the other hand these are super lightweight cabinets.

Despite the lack of very much signal from  bass in the upper reaches, I miss the clarity of a cab with a fuller range. I suspect this is also why some of the better PA cabs have found favour with some bassists.

The usual suspects form the QSC, RCF and  Yamaha ranges provide a viable  bass amp and and also PA  tops. They are fitted with Digital Signal Processing and some models have settings for floor and pole mount use. Youh could argue that DSP allows the use of inferior drive units I suspect the three brands mentioned do use DSP for fine tuning the response of quality components rather than getting an "acceptable" sound from poorer drive units.

To be honest I would not swap my BC112 Mk3 for a powered PA speaker (at least any I have heard yet) but that being said, despite it being great on the flour it would need some work to make it ideal for pole top use (perhaps @stevie coukd comment here). If I HAD to go for a single solution, to do both jobs I might well go for a decent powered/active PA cab.

I suggest you write down a check list of what you need from a PA speaker and what you need from a bass rig. If one solution gives you most of you "like to haves" then go for it.

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Chienmortbb

[SumOne]

14 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

I will try to give my experience and of course it is only my experience. A cabinet with a single driver cannot cover both PA and Bass duties and I feel I am missing something playing through a Barefaced Super Compact. On the other hand these are super lightweight cabinets.

Despite the lack of very much signal from  bass in the upper reaches, I miss the clarity of a cab with a fuller range. I suspect this is also why some of the better PA cabs have found favour with some bassists.

The usual suspects form the QSC, RCF and  Yamaha ranges provide a viable  bass amp and and also PA  tops. They are fitted with Digital Signal Processing and some models have settings for floor and pole mount use. Youh could argue that DSP allows the use of inferior drive units I suspect the three brands mentioned do use DSP for fine tuning the response of quality components rather than getting an "acceptable" sound from poorer drive units.

To be honest I would not swap my BC112 Mk3 for a powered PA speaker (at least any I have heard yet) but that being said, despite it being great on the flour it would need some work to make it ideal for pole top use (perhaps @stevie coukd comment here). If I HAD to go for a single solution, to do both jobs I might well go for a decent powered/active PA cab.

I suggest you write down a check list of what you need from a PA speaker and what you need from a bass rig. If one solution gives you most of you "like to haves" then go for it.

 

Nice one. Yeah a few compromises on size/weight/cost/sound I've got to consider. 

I've been using my DJ rig of PA amp and speakers as my Bass rig but it's shoddy and doesn't sound great with Bass so I've been looking  for a Bass rig for pub/small venues. Ideally 300w + amp head that could do a clean tone, and with decent EQ and headphone out for home practice but that's not essential as I have various DI, EQ, and cab sim pedals and aux in/headphone outputs. £500 budget, so was steering towards a second hand Ashdown RM 300 or 500 and a cab that can deal well with with Reggae/dub. 

Then I started considering if the Bass rig could also cover the DJ stuff  - it's only since this thread yesterday that I was made aware that a decent active PA could potentially cover both.

If going the active PA speaker route I can potentially sell my DJ amp and speakers (about £250) so will increase to a £750 budget, which lands me right at the asking price of these two QSC K12 (v1)  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QSC-K12-Active-Loudspeaker-speakers-only/274709433797?hash=item3ff5f54dc5:g:5lEAAOSwoP1gQzuZ   .....seems to me that would be a decent DJ rig and a decent Bass rig (when combined with my pedals), it would save me storage space, and would be quite flexible- I could use one in the house for Bass practice, and depending on the venue have the option of using one or two playing Bass live - or use one as floor monitor etc. and can use both for DJ stuff (and if they are clear enough and work well enough at low volumes they could possibly even replace my KRK Rokit 6 active studio monitors for home production stuff but that's probably asking too much). 

So it's the choice between a £500 Bass amp/cab and keep my DJ amp and speakers, or sell the DJ amp and speakers and spend £750 on powered PA to do both....I think I'm pretty much sold on the active PA route as I'm guessing those two K12 (in combination with my various pedals) will sound as good for playing Bass as the £500 Bass amp/cab option as well as having all of the other benefits.

[SumOne]

Does anyone here have good/bad experiences with the QSC K12 (v1) for Bass?

It looks like I can get 2x second hand K12 for roughly the price of 1x new K12.2. Going to give them a test at the weekend.

I hear a lot of positive things about the K12.2 and as far as I can tell there isn't a huge amount of difference in the sound quality- just some design changes to the outer casing, slight weight loss,  3 channel mix vs 2, and the digital screen which provides more EQ adjustments (which I can do prior to the signal getting to the speaker either via DJ mixer or Bass pedals), none of those matter much to me as long as the sound quality is similar. 

My only concern is that the K12.2 has cross over adjustability whereas the K12 does not,  is this this something really useful for playing Bass through it that's missing? I assume not when using just one or two K12's, as things like HPF can be solved prior to them with pedals if needed, but perhaps it's needed if splitting the signal from K12 to a sub?

[jrixn1]

The second generation features perhaps sound useful if you were planning to use the speaker purely standalone, but as you say you're already going to use it with a mixer, pedals, etc.  The band I'm in have K8, K10, and K subs, all first generation, and we've never considered upgrading.

[Teebs]

21 hours ago, SumOne said:

The best options seem to be:

 

RCF 715 

• £486
• 1400 watts
• 45 Hz - 20 kHz
• 15" Woofer and 1.75" voice coil

RCF 732A

• £600
• 1400 watts
• 50 Hz - 20 kHz
• 12" Woofer and 3" voice coil

 

RCF 735

• £720
• 1400 watts
• 45 Hz - 20 kHz
• 15" Woofer and 3" voice coil

 

.....between the 715 and 735 it seems quite big price differences with small differences in speaker sizes. @jrixn1 any particular reason you went for the 732A?

Or, other good option seems to be:

QSC K12.2

• £675
• 2000 watts
• 50 Hz - 20 kHz
• 12" woofer and 1.4" voice coil

 

Check out Thomann - that RCF 735 is £599 at the moment (RCF 735-A Mk IV)...

RCF Art 735-A MK IV – Thomann UK

[jrixn1]

1 minute ago, Teebs said:

Check out Thomann - that RCF 735 is £599 at the moment (RCF 735-A Mk IV)...

RCF Art 735-A MK IV – Thomann UK

But you have to add 20% VAT, bringing it to £719 the same as UK sellers; and all the faffing around if you need to return it to Germany.

[Teebs]

6 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

But you have to add 20% VAT, bringing it to £719 the same as UK sellers; and all the faffing around if you need to return it to Germany.

👍🏼

[adamg67]

On 11/03/2021 at 11:05, SumOne said:

I'm hoping to trade my PA amp and speakers for a Bass Amp and Cab that can also be used for PA.

This sounds a bit like what I've done, except I would say I've gone for an amp and cab that can work as a monitor, but I've never thought of using it as part of the PA. I've got a Big Baby 2, and a Markbass Mulitamp which can be used as a straight power amp which gives me far too many options really. 

The big deal for me is that what goes to the PA or desk for FOH is the same thing I hear out of the amp. So the DI from the amp goes to FOH and into a FRFR speaker, and they sound something like the same. Obviously if there's an engineer I might be better with an monitor and then I hear his fiddling as well, and that's what I'd do for that sceanrio, no speaker at all. For the PA no engineer scenario, without the FRFR speaker, ie using an old fashioned bass cab, FOH would get one sound and I'd get that sound coloured again by the bass speaker. So if it sounded muddy to me and I tried to brighten it up with the eq on my bass, it would end sounding harsh out front (and this really did used to happen)

[SumOne]

I was very close to getting 2x K12 for £750 but then had some very middle aged cash issues (dentist and garden fence!) so for the time being I got a decent enough second hand 112 cab, will get a cheap functional Bass amp and keep my old PA gear. It'll all do the job fine for now and can add to it over time, or go the active PA route further down the line.

Apart from cash, I was considering some of the grotty, boozy, drizzly places I've placed speakers before and how they've been bashed about -  I won't be so precious with a lump of passive cab and my old passive PA speakers that can potentially be placed away from the protected amp/mixer etc. as I would be with fancy active PA speakers (especially if I'd gone for something like a £675 K12.2 with a digital screen on the back). That's probably just me making myself feel better for not having the spare cash though! 

[jrixn1]

38 minutes ago, SumOne said:

I was considering some of the grotty, boozy, drizzly places I've placed speakers before and how they've been bashed about

They make live-in covers with zipped/velcroed flaps in the right places.

https://www.qsc.com/live-sound/products/loudspeakers/powered-loudspeakers/qsc-k2-seriestm-new/k122/k12-outdoor-cover/

https://saveltd.co.uk/genuine-rcf-padded-speaker-cover-bag-art-712-a--722-a--732-a--412-a--422-a-1141-p.asp

[Jack]

The qsc tote bags are brilliant but not live-in, I'd get a case like the above if I had to put mine in the floor all the time but I don't. I still have the short pa stand I used to use with my Barefaced rig, they can go on there. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Jack