Pro Tools versus Reaper?

[Beedster]

I've been using Pro Tools a long time, until this time last year as a hobbyist, now as part of my day job. Recent issues with the software plus the fact that it's getting to be quite an expensive package has made me wonder whether I should look elsewhere. I hear a lot about Reaper. I do mostly voiceover work for my day job at present plus some hobby music recording. I'd usually be quite happy to simply try a new package on spec, but time is not all that plentiful, and because I'm also using it for work now, I don't want to make life any harder. My main question is whether there is going to be a steep learning curve with Reaper coming from Pro Tools, and if so, do you folks think it's worth it? 

Thanks

Chris

[Noisyjon]

I'm thinking about going from Logic to Reaper so while not the same situ as you Chris, I'm very interested in this subject.
Good luck and sub'd to see what advice transpires

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, Beedster said:

... learning curve with Reaper coming from Pro Tools, and if so, do you folks think it's worth it? ...

It depends not a little on exactly what you're doing, and how. If you're recording onto a track or two, using a bit of treatment, then mixing and rendering to a stereo WAV, OGG or MP3, then you probably won't see much of a difference, once you've done a tour of the screen and a few keyboard shortcuts. The Vst plugins will work in similar fashion, unless you have particular compressors or console strips that are specific to Protools, with no equivalent. I don't use Protools, but from what I've seen of others using it, and the screenshots and videos on the subject, I can't see much difference. For cost reasons, there's no chance I'll be doing it, but if I was considering doing the opposite (going from Reaper to Protools...), I wouldn't sweat it; they're not that far apart.
The simple way forward would be to install Reaper and use in on a typical task, whilst maintaining current 'production' on Protools until proficiency is obtained. I don't reckon that that would take long. In truth, of course, the answer's a lemon : suck it and see. 

[WinterMute]

From my admittedly limited experience with Reaper, it's a decent alternative, but it doesn't handle plug-in delay compensation very well, and it's very latent. These issues may have been addressed in later releases, it's been a while since I've used it.

Protools handles plugins very well and allows hardware insert compensation, it's great with really large sessions now with the folder tracks and it's probably the best DAW on the market for surround and Atmos.

Yes, it's expensive, but it's very reliable and it always delivers in my experience, I cannot say the same for Reaper, Logic, Abelton etc.

Edited March 16, 2021 by WinterMute

[BigRedX]

Since you are using a Mac, you should really be looking at Logic as an alternative to ProTools rather than Reaper.

Reaper looks very impressive for the price, but as soon as you need any serious plug-ins you'll need to to be paying out and pretty soon that cost advantage will have disappeared.

Ultimately unless you are having very serious compatibility issues with your current DAW it is nearly always most effective to stick with what you know, rather than waste time trying to learn something else that does all the same things but in a slightly different way.

BTW what's your audio hardware/interface that you are using? IME the massive advantage of ProTools is the integration of the software with the ProTools hardware. Most of the problems I see have happened since the platform was opened up to use 3rd party interfaces. Some work better than others.

[paul_5]

I’ve been using PT for a couple of decades. When my MacBook Pro eventually dies I’ll be moving to Logic, since it’s significantly cheaper than the protools subscription model. I bought a perpetual license about 5 years ago, when the subscription thing came out, but there are some plugins than only work if you have a current subscription, so it’s a bit of a con really. 

[Beedster]

Thanks very much folks, interesting comments. The reason I posted about Reaper and not, for example Logic, is simply that I keep hearing positive things about it, almost as if it's some form of magic bullet! I tried Logic briefly and it didn't really make sense to me, possibly because I'd already tried and failed to see any merit in Garageband.

There's a few things above I hadn't thought of, especially around latency and plug-ins. I use two RME devices with Pro Tools, a Fireface 400 with an older copy of Pro Tools on an old iMac, and a Babyface Pro on a recent Mac Mini (I also tun a copy on a MacBook for editing in the house). I've certainly never had any compatibility issues (and referring to BRX's point above, whilst I can understand that opening up the software to 3rd party interfaces caused problems, when I started using PT it wouldn't work unless the computer was attached to an interface, which came with a whole different set of problems if you wanted to edit away from the desk).

My main problems are that over time I've found the software itself is less stable than it was, I've had numerous crashes over the last few months, it takes an extremely long time to load which can also be frustrating (for reasons I won't go into here I have to switch between PT and, for example Adobe apps, and there's less chance of a crash if any app I'm not using is turned off, both appear a lot more likely to crash if the other is open), and don't get me started on how long it takes to load at the point in the month at which it checks that my subscription has been paid (and on two or three occasions, despite being paid automatically by DD, it's refused to open suggesting that I haven't paid - OK, after a few tries it does, but this is not a user-friendly experience by any means). 

Most seriously on two of three occasions I've imported a PT file from one computer to another using a hard drive only to see an error message indicating that 'one or more tracks are missing'. I've learned that I need to duplicate all files before closing a copy of PT on one machine and moving to another to edit, but all the same, this is a pretty serious problem and just adds to the increasingly long list of minor issues I'm having, all of which seem to be getting worse over time, not better.

So, I think my patience with PT is slowly running out

 

 

[skidder652003]

I run reaper on both a mac and PC and there are small differenced but both are stable. As the trial version is the full version without any time limit (they just ask you to pay when you can, £60) why don't you just download it and give it a go?

I've also got Garageband and Harrison Mixbus and I always go back to Reaper.

Edited March 17, 2021 by skidder652003

[BigRedX]

The main reason that Reaper gets so much love is that it has a very low entry cost (essentially free and only £60 if you really want to pay for it) compared with other DAWs. However for that price you don't get very much other than the actual program, and to reach the same level of plug-in functionality as Logic you would probably have to spend quite a bit of extra money and almost certainly more than the £199 that Logic costs. However if all your plug-ins that you are currently using with ProTools are in AU format then you should be able to continue using them with Reaper.

The other big disadvantage with Reaper is that it's MIDI editing/manipulation facilities are much less comprehensive than those in DAWs that started out life as sequencing applications like Logic, Cubase and Performer. Again though if ProTools' MIDI capabilities have been sufficient, then Reaper's should be too.

ProTools for all it's historic dominance is on it's way out. Since affordable computers now have the kind of processing power that mostly renders the ProTools hardware unnecessary, it's USP has become less and less relevant. Added to it's problems are the reliance on the less than robust iLok copy protection system (as Beedster has already discovered) and the fact that the parent company Avid has been on the brink of financial disaster for years now, IMO ProTools days are numbered and it is only historical inertia rather than actual functionality that keeps its user base sticking with it.

Also bear in mind that the parent company Avid are first and foremost into video editing and their audio offerings are very much second-class products compared with their main business. A cynical person might also be unsurprised that ProTools isn't playing nicely with Adobe products when the company produces competing applications - Premier, After Effects and Audition (BTW if you are an Adobe CC Subscriber you should definitely have a look at Audition as you already have it for free).

[Noisyjon]

Great info & insight on Reaper, PT & Logic there @BigRedX, thank you,

I used to use Audition a lot in a previous job and it's a cracking bit of software, I highly recommend it. FWIW Grams Ops in the TV world would do all their editing and manipulation of effects, music, VOs, etc in Audition and then load them into the playout software. 

[Beedster]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

The main reason that Reaper gets so much love is that it has a very low entry cost (essentially free and only £60 if you really want to pay for it) compared with other DAWs. However for that price you don't get very much other than the actual program, and to reach the same level of plug-in functionality as Logic you would probably have to spend quite a bit of extra money and almost certainly more than the £199 that Logic costs. However if all your plug-ins that you are currently using with ProTools are in AU format then you should be able to continue using them with Reaper.

The other big disadvantage with Reaper is that it's MIDI editing/manipulation facilities are much less comprehensive than those in DAWs that started out life as sequencing applications like Logic, Cubase and Performer. Again though if ProTools' MIDI capabilities have been sufficient, then Reaper's should be too.

ProTools for all it's historic dominance is on it's way out. Since affordable computers now have the kind of processing power that mostly renders the ProTools hardware unnecessary, it's USP has become less and less relevant. Added to it's problems are the reliance on the less than robust iLok copy protection system (as Beedster has already discovered) and the fact that the parent company Avid has been on the brink of financial disaster for years now, IMO ProTools days are numbered and it is only historical inertia rather than actual functionality that keeps its user base sticking with it.

Also bear in mind that the parent company Avid are first and foremost into video editing and their audio offerings are very much second-class products compared with their main business. A cynical person might also be unsurprised that ProTools isn't playing nicely with Adobe products when the company produces competing applications - Premier, After Effects and Audition (BTW if you are an Adobe CC Subscriber you should definitely have a look at Audition as you already have it for free).

Wow, thanks BRX (once again), there's so much in there that resonates. One of the reasons I posted is that, as a long time user of PT, I just get the sense that the engineers are not as worried as they used to be about glitches - with each update there seem to be more issues, not less. The feel that, as you put it, it's on its way out, is tangible (let's face it, any recording package that can lose a track cannot in any way be described as 'professional'). I'm not sure which version I have on my old iMac but it's stable with no glitches, I haven't updated it for a long time and there's no problem. But even that version takes longer and longer to load with each passing week, and because I can't have two versions open at the same time (without buying another license it would appear), these things slow to a snail's pace what should be fast and seamless. I also worry that one day I'm going to log on to the iMac only to find a message saying that Avid no longer support that version of the software or similar.

The Adobe thing is interesting. It was my having to start using Adobe a year or so ago that coincided with the problems with Pro Tools, although it seems now that Pro Tools is quite capable of making its own problems. Either way, they certainly don't seem to have a nice effect on each other when they're both open at the same time. 

I'm going to have a look at Audition because I do have CC. 

Thanks again BRX

[WinterMute]

I've been very impressed with Universal Audio's Luna platform, it's probably where I'll head once Protools keels over, the admission price is a bit high, in that you have to buy one of the UAD interfaces to get hold of it, but it's integration with the hardware is stellar and it's a very powerful and developing system.

Logic remain my second choice if only for the huge amount it gives you out of the box, but it's never sounded as good as Protools to me, regardless of the hardware involved.

I may run it up for a test with my UAD hardware and plug-ins, see if that makes a difference, I find it difficult to navigate around.

[BigRedX]

A lot of the time the choice of DAW can be completely arbitrary and its continued use is as much to do with inertia as it is with features.

I've been a Logic user since version 1.something when it was a MIDI sequencer only and I only added the "Audio" extra sometime during version 3 when I finally had a computer with enough grunt for simple multi-track recording and playback. My choice was made by the fact that one of the people I was collocating with at the time was a Logic user too. Left to my own devices I would have probably bought Opcode's "Vision" just before Gibson bought them up and killed the product off, so in some ways it was a lucky escape.

Recently I have been running it on my MacBook Pro for the live backing for one of my bands with all the resources for all the songs we play on a single arrange page. While it does the job, it's a bit clunky using it this way, changing the set order is a real pain, and last minute changes at the gig can be a bit seat-of-the-pants. Generally it's easier to stop playback between tracks on stage and manually change the the playback cursor position using markers than it is to re-order the tracks in the dressing room.

I have looked at the latest version of PreSonus Studio One which has special features built-in for people who want to use it in a live situation that makes the above simple, but everything else works so differently to Logic that I have yet to take the plunge. Add to this inertia the fact that the keyboard player in my other band has just started using Logic for his songwriting and you can see why I'm probably going to stick with what I know, even if it isn't always the best solution for all my needs.

[paul_5]

This.I moved to Pro Tools after 20years of Cubase as I had some multi track drum takes (7 mic setup I think) and at the time Cubase wouldn’t let me group all of the tracks and time stretch them together, but keep them as separate tracks. Admittedly that was a looooonnnngggg time ago (Cubase SX 2 or 3 I think), so I jumped ship. Within months there was a new release that would let me do that, but the client wouldn’t have waited that long!! 

These days they’re pretty much identical as regards features.

[Noisyjon]

An update from me - After seeing this thread and reading up I bought Logic Pro X!

It has been a good few years since I have used it but it was like putting the old slippers on/riding a bike again.

Good advice and saved me from any unknown issues/costs that I may have encountered otherwise.  

[BigRedX]

Well I was going to take my own advice and finally upgrade Logic, but it turns out that I can't do it.

About a year ago I bought a second hand MacPro 5,1 to replace my previous (also second hand) MacPro3,1 because I needed to update OSX from El Capitan to High Sierra in order to run the latest versions of the Adobe Creative Cloud apps for my work. At the time I spotted that my copy of Logic 9 no longer worked after the OS update, but as I wasn't doing any music due to lockdown, I wasn't that bothered. 

Last month the keyboard player from Hurtsfall got in touch saying that we had been invited to contribute a new track to a compilation album and here was his initial idea for the music. Would I be able to add some Bass VI to it? He'd just bought himself a copy of Logic since he knew that's what I was using. No problem, I thought I'll work something out to the MP3 I've been sent and then when I'm ready to record, I'll take the plunge and buy a copy of Logic Pro X. By the beginning of last week, we'd got the structure of the song sorted and I was ready to record. 

It turns out that sometime in the past 12 months Logic Pro X has been updated and the current version now requires Catalina as the minimum OS. The App store won't let me buy a previous version, even though there is an older one that works under High Sierra. A telephone conversation with Apple support reveals that it might be possible for me to get hold of a version that will work with my Mac, but I will need access to a Mac with Catalina on it in order to be able to purchase the latest version of Logic. I should then be able to go to the App Store on my MacPro and it will allow me to download the most recent version that is supported under High Sierra. However Apple can't guarantee that method will be 100% effective. I have half a mind to buy a the cheapest new Mac I can find from Apple, get my copy of Logic (if the method works) and then send it back for a refund under distance selling regs.

In the meantime I was able to do my recording in GarageBand (although even that complained bitterly about being out of date) and I have been investigating the cross-grade options for PreSonus Studio One which does run on my Mac.

[Beedster]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

Well I was going to take my own advice and finally upgrade Logic, but it turns out that I can't do it.

About a year ago I bought a second hand MacPro 5,1 to replace my previous (also second hand) MacPro3,1 because I needed to update OSX from El Capitan to High Sierra in order to run the latest versions of the Adobe Creative Cloud apps for my work. At the time I spotted that my copy of Logic 9 no longer worked after the OS update, but as I wasn't doing any music due to lockdown, I wasn't that bothered. 

Last month the keyboard player from Hurtsfall got in touch saying that we had been invited to contribute a new track to a compilation album and here was his initial idea for the music. Would I be able to add some Bass VI to it? He'd just bought himself a copy of Logic since he knew that's what I was using. No problem, I thought I'll work something out to the MP3 I've been sent and then when I'm ready to record, I'll take the plunge and buy a copy of Logic Pro X. By the beginning of last week, we'd got the structure of the song sorted and I was ready to record. 

It turns out that sometime in the past 12 months Logic Pro X has been updated and the current version now requires Catalina as the minimum OS. The App store won't let me buy a previous version, even though there is an older one that works under High Sierra. A telephone conversation with Apple support reveals that it might be possible for me to get hold of a version that will work with my Mac, but I will need access to a Mac with Catalina on it in order to be able to purchase the latest version of Logic. I should then be able to go to the App Store on my MacPro and it will allow me to download the most recent version that is supported under High Sierra. However Apple can't guarantee that method will be 100% effective. I have half a mind to buy a the cheapest new Mac I can find from Apple, get my copy of Logic (if the method works) and then send it back for a refund under distance selling regs.

In the meantime I was able to do my recording in GarageBand (although even that complained bitterly about being out of date) and I have been investigating the cross-grade options for PreSonus Studio One which does run on my Mac.

I feel your pain mate, this is pretty much where I found myself this time last year. Only takes on bit of software that will no longer run on an OS and things start getting messy. I 'upgraded' the OS on my MacBook around that time to allow myself to use some Apps I needed and nearly everything else, including my Thunderbolt display, simply stopped working. The messing about and workarounds got silly to I ended up buying a Mac Mini and reverting the MacBook. I'm still trying to work out the best way to have all of my machines using the same software and, ideally all able to connect to the same hardware.

Re recording software, I'm currently looking at Luna as I have swapped one of my RME's for a UAD. I've probably made things worse however

[Dad3353]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Well I was going to take my own advice and finally upgrade Logic, but it turns out that I can't do it...

We never have these compatibility issues with our Windows PC's. Mac, eh..? Who'd have 'em..! 

...

  Not..!

[Happy Jack]

Next up ... Android. 🤨

[SubsonicSimpleton]

3 hours ago, BigRedX said:

I have half a mind to buy a the cheapest new Mac I can find from Apple

The new mac mini that is using apple's own cpu's looks like it might be both sensibly priced(by apple standards) and worthwhile for music/video production work - I am an ardent hater of apple's forced upgrade/restricted access to older software versions/anti-upgrade and repair business practices, but I'm starting to consider migrating from windaz next time I upgrade my recording setup.

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, SubsonicSimpleton said:

... I'm starting to consider migrating from windaz ...

And I'm starting to seriously consider Linux, to rid myself of the insidious W10 incursion into my PC usage. I don't want the PC software to 'help' me, nor treat me as a 'mate' or 'buddy'. Sod off; I'm doing things as I wish, and don't want nor need to join in with your nonsense. If only my principal Vst's ran on Linux... 

[Beedster]

Logged into Pro Tools today to receive an error message stating that I have five days left to renew my subscription and that Avid are giving me extra time? I pay monthly, the payment went through about two weeks ago (with the inevitable extremely slow log in the session following that monthly renewal). Total log in time today over 5 minutes, so this is really the final straw with PT, or more to the point perhaps, with AVID and their appalling subscription model. I still have all the original disks from when I bought PT, I'm wondering if I can reinstall an old OS onto my 'recording' iMac and simply use it un-networked?

[skankdelvar]

Couple things as a long-time Reaper user:

Like any platform, Reaper falls over sometimes.

Coming to it from scratch as an almost total DAW newbie the learning curve was initially shallow (digital tape recorder) then vertiginous and now I just assume if there's absolutely anything I want to do there's probably a way to do it and a video that shows me how. If you've used Pro_tools to any degree you'll be fine going straight in. Kenny Gioia's instructional videos on YT are a god-send, even if he sounds like a New Jersey made-guy.

Is Reaper resource hungry? Not in my experience. I'm running it on a 12 year-old PC with 4Gb of RAM of which about half is committed to other things so when the CPU hits 50% then a twenty track song starts to stutter. I can track with Skype, Google and AVG open in the background with about 3ms of latency. I've had upwards of 60 VST's open across multiple audio and midi tracks. Some midi latency with hungry VST's like a polyphonic pitch-to-midi converter.

The bundled VST's are visually ugly and a bit limited but they do the job, they're resource-light and there's quite a lot of them. They're mostly tonally neutral (characterlessness can be good, sometimes) but there are loads of character VST freebies out there if you want tonal voodoo.

I've worked my way through a crillion EQ plug-ins and these days I'm mostly back to the bundled ReaEQ which is simple, tonally neutral and flexible. The bundled sampler isn't great but there's a script circulating in the community which - it is alleged - vibes it up a bit. 

Reaper's cheap. Free trial (nag screen, no functional limitations) then £60 for the non-commercial license. That buys you all updates and a free upgrade to the next version iteration. So I went from V3 to V6 in two hops costing me £120.00 (at today's prices).

Amazingly, it downloads as 12Mb (zipped inc VSTs). Furthermore, I installed V6 (current) over V4 in about a minute and every project and setting was saved in place. Maybe that's normal but it seemed miraculous to me.

Reaper fan? Very much so. Tried anything else? Well, no, apart from Cakewalk, back in the day.

Should you try Reaper? Absitively posilutely. Should you buy it? See how you get on 

Edited March 29, 2021 by skankdelvar

[Happy Jack]

This track was recorded in my garage/studio using Reaper, and the video created using Reaper, all by a complete newbie.

https://fb.watch/4yKK8Ooz72/

Obviously not helped by the fact that we weren't allowed to be in the same place at the same time, hence all the green-screening!

Edited March 30, 2021 by Happy Jack

[BigRedX]

On 27/03/2021 at 16:24, Dad3353 said:

And I'm starting to seriously consider Linux, to rid myself of the insidious W10 incursion into my PC usage. I don't want the PC software to 'help' me, nor treat me as a 'mate' or 'buddy'. Sod off; I'm doing things as I wish, and don't want nor need to join in with your nonsense. If only my principal Vst's ran on Linux... 

IME Linux is fine if you have a strong technical computing background, are happy with command line interface for getting some of the more tricky things done, and your computing interests are either simple web browsing/email/office functions or server administration.

For creative users, especially those of us with professional needs for graphics/audio/video the applications simply are not there.