Pro Tools versus Reaper?

[Dad3353]

23 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

IME Linux is fine if you have a strong technical computing background, are happy with command line interface for getting some of the more tricky things done, and your computing interests are either simple web browsing/email/office functions or server administration.

For creative users, especially those of us with professional needs for graphics/audio/video the applications simply are not there. 

I'm not sure about the 'creative users' part; I find that to be a bit polarising, but... whatever. I have enough Unix and IT experience (far...) behind me, and Linux has come a long way in GUI interfaces and general 'user-friendliness' since its inception, and does far more than simply web and email stuff these days. Many of the hardware driver issues are solved, too. S'not for all, I'll gladly accord, but nor are Mac's or PC's, either. Having read of the incessant Apple updates and OS changes over the years, I'm not at all sure I'd want to jump onto such a gravy train, and Windows 10, after some years of stability, has now succumbed to the intrusive ethos of treating the Users as children. I was vey content in my Atari 68k bubble, back then..!
I've found a useable drum kit for a linux-based Reaper (DrumGizmo, several kits under observation...), and will move forward cautiously. There's enough 'pro' stuff out there for my needs, and that's all I need to concern myself with. 

[jrixn1]

You can try Ubuntu without actually having to install anything, by booting from a DVD or memory stick: https://ubuntu.com/tutorials/try-ubuntu-before-you-install

[Mcgiver69]

4 hours ago, BigRedX said:

IME Linux is fine if you have a strong technical computing background, are happy with command line interface for getting some of the more tricky things done, and your computing interests are either simple web browsing/email/office functions or server administration.

For creative users, especially those of us with professional needs for graphics/audio/video the applications simply are not there. 

Goodness there's a lot of assuming based on outdated information. There are a lot of people using Linux right now for graphics, video and audio. maybe they are not the majority but Linux has grown a lot since those days. Same as your assumptions about Reaper; the only I can agree is the fact that Reaper doesn't come packaged with tons of fancy plugins (Amp sims, Instruments, etc..) but with the money you have left after paying for your license you still have enough to buy your favourite instruments, amp sims and other fancy plugins. I'm positive that after that the total expense will be cheaper than a Logic or a Cubase License.

[Mcgiver69]

4 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

I'm not sure about the 'creative users' part; I find that to be a bit polarising, but... whatever. I have enough Unix and IT experience (far...) behind me, and Linux has come a long way in GUI interfaces and general 'user-friendliness' since its inception, and does far more than simply web and email stuff these days. Many of the hardware driver issues are solved, too. S'not for all, I'll gladly accord, but nor are Mac's or PC's, either. Having read of the incessant Apple updates and OS changes over the years, I'm not at all sure I'd want to jump onto such a gravy train, and Windows 10, after some years of stability, has now succumbed to the intrusive ethos of treating the Users as children. I was vey content in my Atari 68k bubble, back then..!
I've found a useable drum kit for a linux-based Reaper (DrumGizmo, several kits under observation...), and will move forward cautiously. There's enough 'pro' stuff out there for my needs, and that's all I need to concern myself with. 

I have an old computer with AV Linux in it which I use for some recording and mixing. I even use a good amount of Windows plugins and have no issues. If you need any help message me and I can help you. if you use Reaper, it works great in native mode. there are other options (Ardour, Mixbus, Waveform, etc..) that work very well too.

BTW Reaper for Linux now supports LV2 plugins which means you can use AVL Drumkits (2 kits with multi-output) and you can use SFZ libraries too. MT-Powerdrumkit works very well too and SSD5.5 works too.

Edited March 31, 2021 by Mcgiver69

[Dad3353]

51 minutes ago, Mcgiver69 said:

... If you need any help message me and I can help you...

This has not fallen on deaf ears (well, actually, it has  , but, well, you know what I mean...). A medium-term project, as I have to conjure up a PC or laptop (or both...) for the OS, but in the meantime I'm scouting any and all possibilities. I've looked at (but not played yet...) the SFZ AVL kits; so far, the (free...) DrumGizmo stuff looks to fit my bill. The search continues, though; thanks in advance. Be aware, though, that you may come to regret this offer. 

[Mcgiver69]

55 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

This has not fallen on deaf ears (well, actually, it has  , but, well, you know what I mean...). A medium-term project, as I have to conjure up a PC or laptop (or both...) for the OS, but in the meantime I'm scouting any and all possibilities. I've looked at (but not played yet...) the SFZ AVL kits; so far, the (free...) DrumGizmo stuff looks to fit my bill. The search continues, though; thanks in advance. Be aware, though, that you may come to regret this offer. 

Believe me I would never do that, I like helping.

As for OS I would recommend the new version of AVL Linux, it comes pre-configured with most of the stuff you would need in an nice and neat package that works out of the box. Drumgizmo is very good but the kits tend to be massive and consumes a lot of resources (unless you have a very good computer). i have had very good results using AVL Drumkits and SFZ kits (even better using Carla as the SFZ loader).

Just msg me when you are ready and poke around the Reaper Linux forum, there are lots of nice guys there too (I'm assuming you are using Reaper).

[Dad3353]

1 minute ago, Mcgiver69 said:

...(I'm assuming you are using Reaper).

[BigRedX]

14 hours ago, Mcgiver69 said:

Goodness there's a lot of assuming based on outdated information. There are a lot of people using Linux right now for graphics, video and audio. maybe they are not the majority but Linux has grown a lot since those days. Same as your assumptions about Reaper; the only I can agree is the fact that Reaper doesn't come packaged with tons of fancy plugins (Amp sims, Instruments, etc..) but with the money you have left after paying for your license you still have enough to buy your favourite instruments, amp sims and other fancy plugins. I'm positive that after that the total expense will be cheaper than a Logic or a Cubase License.

OK. Point me at Linux native professional standard alternatives to InDesign, Illustrator, Photoshop and Acrobat Professional.

And Logic is £199.00 To bridge the gap between what comes bundled with Logic and what you get with Reaper is going to cost you a lot more, even if you just pared it down to plugins that you need, rather than the full set that come with Logic.

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

OK. Point me at Linux native professional standard alternatives to InDesign, Illustrator, Photoshop and Acrobat Professional.

And Logic is £199.00 To bridge the gap between what comes bundled with Logic and what you get with Reaper is going to cost you a lot more, even if you just pared it down to plugins that you need, rather than the full set that come with Logic.

My needs and usage are far different, and I'm not recommending Linux for anyone, simply starting to think of it as an alternative for myself. Maybe I should split these notions away from this Topic, as it seems to bug you somewhat. Peace. 

[Jakester]

I'm on Reaper after being hacked off with Apple after paying for Logic 9, to have to pay again for 10 as their OS updates rendered the former unusable. 

I initially found Reaper close to unusable as it was so counterintuitive in many of the ways it did things, but I've slowly got to grips with it and it seems no better or worse than alternatives I've used in the past. One of the good things about it is you can change its behaviours in so many ways that you can effectively tailor it to suit you. 

[BigRedX]

38 minutes ago, Jakester said:

I'm on Reaper after being hacked off with Apple after paying for Logic 9, to have to pay again for 10 as their OS updates rendered the former unusable. 

I initially found Reaper close to unusable as it was so counterintuitive in many of the ways it did things, but I've slowly got to grips with it and it seems no better or worse than alternatives I've used in the past. One of the good things about it is you can change its behaviours in so many ways that you can effectively tailor it to suit you. 

Did you need to update your OS? I never update my OS unless an application I absolutely require demands that I do.

I've only updated and got stuck in Logic limbo because I had to update the OS to be able to use the latest versions of Adobe Creative Cloud which I require for my job. These days using my computer for recording/composing music is very much a secondary function to using it to make a living, so work requirements have to come first.

Also if you are begrudging spending £199 on Logic Pro, you obviously didn't run Logic in the early days when the new price was IIRC £399 for just the MIDI sequencing application and an additional £300 for the "Audio" extension to allow you to record and manipulate audio; and upgrades were £150-£200 a go (plus an additional £150-£200 to upgrade the Audio component). And if you wanted plug-in instruments they were £50 to £200 each depending on what you bought. A "back of an envelope" calculation on what I spent from buying Logic 1.x to upgrading each version to Logic Audio 4 plus the various plugins is somewhere around £2k (that's just for software - I hate to think how much I spent on MIDI and Audio interfaces over the same period). On top of that some of the upgrades required you to exchange your copy protection dongle for a newer version leaving you without any functioning music software for about a week.

In those terms the current pricing of Logic X at £199 is a complete bargain.

[Jakester]

34 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Also if you are begrudging spending £199 on Logic Pro, you obviously didn't run Logic in the early days when the new price was IIRC £399 for just the MIDI sequencing application and an additional £300 for the "Audio" extension to allow you to record and manipulate audio; and upgrades were £150-£200 a go

Yes, I did - that's why I was so annoyed!

[Mcgiver69]

It is the usual I use Apple so therefore everything else is kids play BS.

Sorry if Logic works for you then great but it doesn't mean every other software is crap just because. every DAW is only as good as the user and still I managed to get everything else you got in Logic for less than the £199 you paid for it. Believe it or not.

As for Linux maybe there are not software as great as the ones you named but that doesn't mean you can't do professional work using it. All I hear is the same Apple rules and the rest drool kind of attitude.

 

[Jakester]

30 minutes ago, Mcgiver69 said:

It is the usual I use Apple so therefore everything else is kids play BS.

Sorry if Logic works for you then great but it doesn't mean every other software is crap just because. every DAW is only as good as the user and still I managed to get everything else you got in Logic for less than the £199 you paid for it. Believe it or not.

As for Linux maybe there are not software as great as the ones you named but that doesn't mean you can't do professional work using it. All I hear is the same Apple rules and the rest drool kind of attitude.

 

A bit extreme, no? I don't see anyone saying things along the lines you suggest....

[Beedster]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

I've only updated and got stuck in Logic limbo because I had to update the OS to be able to use the latest versions of Adobe Creative Cloud which I require for my job.

Exactly the same cause as my current software woes, worst decision I ever made I think  

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, Mcgiver69 said:

As for Linux maybe there are not software as great as the ones you named but that doesn't mean you can't do professional work using it. All I hear is the same Apple rules and the rest drool kind of attitude.

A good graphic designer will be able to produce something creative using Microsoft Paint. However that doesn't mean that the professional tools aren't easier to use and ultimately help you get the job done quicker and better. That's certainly the case when you need to produce work to exact technical standards.

As I keep saying an OS is only as good as the applications that can run under it. So for all the Linux "bluster" I have yet see evidence of professional quality, native (IMO running under WINE completely defeats the point of using an alternative OS), applications for graphic design for print.

[Dad3353]

We are not all professional graphic designers. Some here are humble musicians, and most of us cut our coats according to our cloth (cheap cotton, mostly, for me...). I'm not interested in any of the advantages that Apple procure for others, marvellous though they be. Linux will run enough software for my modest needs. Now to find the hardware...

[WinterMute]

The Apple vs PC debate has been over since pretty much all processor models will run multitrack audio without problems, RAM is the issue, 16Gb is barely enough these days, 32 or 64 is much better and prevents all the DAW variants from accessing the HD so much, also get a separate HD for the audio, so that your OS drive is for nothing but apps and OS, make the audio drive an SSD if you can afford it.

If you don't want pay to play Apple/Avid games, then don't, it's completely irrelevant now.

Discussion of relative feature sets and workflows in DAWs is much more interesting, as is ultimately, what we all do with them.

[paul_5]

43 minutes ago, WinterMute said:

The Apple vs PC debate has been over

Au contraire mon amie, it’s a question of how efficient and stable your operating system is, and how it manages the resources available.

I’d sooner run on anything than a Windows OS; my wife has one and is forever waiting for the updates and patch downloads that she has no control over.

[Dad3353]

35 minutes ago, paul_5 said:

Au contraire mon amie, it’s a question of how efficient and stable your operating system is, and how it manages the resources available.

I’d sooner run on anything than a Windows OS; my wife has one and is forever waiting for the updates and patch downloads that she has no control over.

And, it would seem, Apple stuff does the same, with, perhaps, the difference that one can choose to update or not (I'm not sure about that, though...). That's why I'm looking towards Linux, where stuff happens only when I make it happen. I've nothing against updates, but it infuriates me when a system that I'm happy with becomes useless, and I can't roll it back. My budget is limited, so once I've got stuff working, I want to keep it that way. Other than that, I don't mind what the OS is (I've worked successfully with many over the decades...). Unix suited me, but has little appeal now, financially, and supports few programmes I use, so...

Edited April 1, 2021 by Dad3353

[skankdelvar]

The marvellous thing is that musicians at all levels of ability are happily producing songs on a range of platforms. All of these DAWs are light years ahead of the old Fostex's and Portastudios with which we laboured back in the old days so let's raise a glass to that happy outcome.

Are any of the DAWs better than any of the others? Well, it depends. Reaper's a stable, relatively cheap, incredibly flexible DAW with a limited bundle of plug-ins and a friendly business model. When you start to dig deeper Reaper tries so hard to accommodate the more outrageous possibilities that it becomes a bit of a brain-melt and you find yourself knee-deep in commands, actions and mouse modifiers.

As for the limited plug-in bundle: there's a very basic, clunky-looking suite of (sometimes) open-source plug-ins that do the job with minimal CPU drag. If one desires something more exotic there's a world of freebie VST's out there, many of which are really rather nice and the quest for which satisfies one's hunter-gatherer instinct.

[Mcgiver69]

1 hour ago, skankdelvar said:

The marvellous thing is that musicians at all levels of ability are happily producing songs on a range of platforms. All of these DAWs are light years ahead of the old Fostex's and Portastudios with which we laboured back in the old days so let's raise a glass to that happy outcome.

Are any of the DAWs better than any of the others? Well, it depends. Reaper's a stable, relatively cheap, incredibly flexible DAW with a limited bundle of plug-ins and a friendly business model. When you start to dig deeper Reaper tries so hard to accommodate the more outrageous possibilities that it becomes a bit of a brain-melt and you find yourself knee-deep in commands, actions and mouse modifiers.

As for the limited plug-in bundle: there's a very basic, clunky-looking suite of (sometimes) open-source plug-ins that do the job with minimal CPU drag. If one desires something more exotic there's a world of freebie VST's out there, many of which are really rather nice and the quest for which satisfies one's hunter-gatherer instinct.

And this is the best take I've seen in this thread so far. It is true Reaper tries too hard to please everyone's desires and could turn into a real headache.

[Happy Jack]

23 minutes ago, Mcgiver69 said:

And this is the best take I've seen in this thread so far. It is true Reaper tries too hard to please everyone's desires and could turn into a real headache.

I remember the days of the 80/20 product, where 80% of what you needed was satisfied by 20% of the features. That was 40/50 years ago.

By 20 years ago we had (IMHO) the 90/10 product moving rapidly towards 95/5, i.e. software. I used spreadsheets and word processors for a living for many years, and there were always great swathes of Excel that I never needed to go anywhere near.

Now? Well now we have the 99/1 product, which is the average DAW. 

The secret to being satisfied with your DAW, whichever one it is and however much it cost you, is to just use the bits you need and assume that the bits you don't use are not worthy of you. Nirvana achieved.

[WinterMute]

2 hours ago, paul_5 said:

Au contraire mon amie, it’s a question of how efficient and stable your operating system is, and how it manages the resources available.

I’d sooner run on anything than a Windows OS; my wife has one and is forever waiting for the updates and patch downloads that she has no control over.

Agreed on Windows, never used it, never will, but I know a lot of very serious engineers and producers who use Windows machines to run audio production with great success. 

My take has always been that Mac OS tends to take less time to manage than windows, but it's not bomb proof, nothing is. My point was chose your weapon and get busy.

[skankdelvar]

27 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

The secret to being satisfied with your DAW, whichever one it is and however much it cost you, is to just use the bits you need and assume that the bits you don't use are not worthy of you. Nirvana achieved.