Emperor’s New Clothes?

[Geek99]

Tbh I’d just buy a jap reissue and leave it at that. They’re made well enough that they are probably what you’re expecting a vintage fender to be but without the insane price tag 

[Doctor J]

If you want something old, buy a good Japanese bass from the late 70's or 80's, something along the lines of a high-end Yamaha BB or the likes. They're now just as old as the oldest Fenders were when they were made and people started losing all rationale over the value of 30 years or older instruments in the 80's. Plus, they started out as good quality and consistently well-built basses too so, if you believe in the road-worn feel, magic wood and pickup fairy dust, they'll have all of that too at a fraction of the cost of the very worst 70's and early 80's Fenders.

Seeing JV Squiers sell for over a grand these days... what have they done to my beautiful planet?

[LukeFRC]

9 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

If you want something old, buy a good Japanese bass from the late 70's or 80's, .....Seeing JV Squiers sell for over a grand these days... what have they done to my beautiful planet?

listening to your advice?

[Doctor J]

Squier were high-end in the 80's?

Edited March 21, 2021 by Doctor J

[Burns-bass]

17 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

Squier were high-end in the 80's?

No, just well made. They’re cheap collectibles. Many happy owners will tell you they’re worth a grand (personally, I’ve never got it).

[OliverBlackman]

It’s all opinions really. I’ve not heard a modern fender (including custom shop) that gets close to what I hear from a decent old fender (70’s included). My Squier VM is miles off. 

Just own/ try lots of instruments and formulate your own opinion rather than relying on strangers advice. Having said that mistake purchases are often part of the process to finding “the one”.

[TheGreek]

As somebody said above, generally, the only people who can tell the difference are other bass players and the various tests at Bass Bashes I've attended suggests that even we don't do that well on this front.

Maybe there is some placebo effect when we play something we gel with - if that's the case with an expensive, vintage instrument then go for it. Many can get the same from low end instruments - I swear that the easiest basses to play I own are my Bass Collection Nanyos. Love the necks, love the tonal palette - makes me enjoy playing more - I think I play better..

A friend of mine did a blind fold test of Gibson LP style guitars and ended up buying the cheapest (which he preferred most). 

I used to take new purchases to a friend's for his opinion - he rarely liked them - he always preferred his own MM Ray - I couldn't get it, I felt it was "ordinary". Clearly what suits one, doesn't suit another.

ATEOTD the instrument only has to please ONE person - the person playing it!!

[Geek99]

4 hours ago, TheGreek said:

As somebody said above, generally, the only people who can tell the difference are other bass players and the various tests at Bass Bashes I've attended suggests that even we don't do that well on this front.

Maybe there is some placebo effect when we play something we gel with - if that's the case with an expensive, vintage instrument then go for it. Many can get the same from low end instruments - I swear that the easiest basses to play I own are my Bass Collection Nanyos. Love the necks, love the tonal palette - makes me enjoy playing more - I think I play better..

A friend of mine did a blind fold test of Gibson LP style guitars and ended up buying the cheapest (which he preferred most). 

I used to take new purchases to a friend's for his opinion - he rarely liked them - he always preferred his own MM Ray - I couldn't get it, I felt it was "ordinary". Clearly what suits one, doesn't suit another.

ATEOTD the instrument only has to please ONE person - the person playing it!!

It was me, I said it

[TheGreek]

So we're both right..👍👍..

[neilp]

Emperor's New Clothes? Absolutely. The differences in tone are pretty minute. The differences in feel are there, but are they worth the money? only you can say. In a recorded or live context, nobody will ever hear the difference between a decent Squier Jazz and a genuine '62 Fender, because the difference is tiny. If owning the 62 gets your motor running and you can afford it, go to it and good luck. There's no right or wrong

[TheGreek]

1 hour ago, neilp said:

There's no right or wrong

Unless you disagree with me....obviously.😉😉

[neilp]

Just to illustrate my point, there was a thread in Another Place discussing the "classic Rickenbacker" tone on a particular record. Now I would think, given how much everyone goes on about different tones of different basses, that everyone could spot a Rickenbacker in a mix, but it turns out we hear what we expect to hear, and the record in question was recorded with a P bass! Play what you enjoy, without apology.

[BreadBin]

Early MIJ Fenders are nice. 

[tegs07]

Are you buying a bass just to play or an investment? There is not necessarily a logical or quality reason for buying a vintage Fender. Scarce collectible items tend to appreciate in value.. If you have the funds and want to try one your more likely to sell at a profit than a loss in a few years time.

I have a thing for older MIJ Fenders and also like classic cars. I don’t have the budget for the cars or MIA vintage Fenders if I did I wouldn’t mind a few of either.

Edited March 23, 2021 by tegs07

[tegs07]

On 21/03/2021 at 14:54, Doctor J said:

If you want something old, buy a good Japanese bass from the late 70's or 80's, something along the lines of a high-end Yamaha BB or the likes. They're now just as old as the oldest Fenders were when they were made and people started losing all rationale over the value of 30 years or older instruments in the 80's.....Seeing JV Squiers sell for over a grand these days... what have they done to my beautiful planet?

I don’t see the problem with this personally. If someone has the cash and wants to spend it on a JV Squire why not? Some people pay to go on cruises, others have expensive gym membership or join a golf club, others spend thousands on cars that depreciate as soon as they are driven off the forecourt.. whatever floats your boat.

[Doctor J]

Why? Probably because I remember when you could get them for less than a tenth of that. A friend bought a used JV Squier P for, if I recall correctly, £90 in the early 90's. They're budget instruments, albeit very decent ones, selling at what are, to me, insane money. Are they in the same league as the kind of basses at the same price in the FS section here such as EBMM Stingrays, Sandbergs, Warwicks, US Fenders, etc, etc, etc? To me, no, not even close but I understand the allure of hype and old exclusivity although I don't see the value of it. As you say, whatever floats your boat, but the thread was started with a question inviting responses and opinion, hence me offering mine 🙂

Edited March 23, 2021 by Doctor J

[tegs07]

Vintage collectibles fall into an entirely different category where logic doesn’t apply. I owned a Type 2 VW camper that I bought for under a grand in the 90’s what it would cost now is many times that... is it better than a modern vehicle? Is it worth it?

It still brings me joy to see them around and I am very happy that people cherish and restore them. Same with old instruments for me. They have an appeal beyond whether they are better or worse than a modern equivalent and I don’t think they can really be compared in the same way. I am just happy they are still used, restored and cherished.

So if I had the budget and had a hankering for a vintage US Fender I would buy one and possibly a vintage mustang to transport it in.

[Doctor J]

I understand that. To me, a bass is a bass, age isn't a factor and I don't place a value on the age of an instrument. I'm attracted by the spec of something but I don't lust after something just because it's old. Many do, I get that, but referring to the OP's question I'm very much in the Emperor's New Clothes camp, controversial as it is.

[tegs07]

22 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

I understand that. To me, a bass is a bass, age isn't a factor and I don't place a value on the age of an instrument. I'm attracted by the spec of something but I don't lust after something just because it's old. Many do, I get that, but referring to the OP's question I'm very much in the Emperor's New Clothes camp, controversial as it is.

Fair enough.. I like the aesthetics, the design aspect, the history and development and the skill that goes into making them. I can definitely see the appeal in the vintage market I guess am just an anorak 

PS I do agree about the price of JV Squires though. I don’t get it either but I also don’t get Apple Watches either.

Edited March 23, 2021 by tegs07
Spelling

[NickA]

That Dave Gilmore was on the radio a bit back when his Black Strat was sold at auction for $3,975,000   (yes, commas not decimal places),  They asked how he could bare to part with it, to which he replied;

....well, they're just tools; Fender make a Gilmore Signature Strat for £2,000 which sounds identical, so I just use one of those when I need to.

Since when, they sold out and can't be got for blood nor reasonable amounts of money (one on Reverb for £14,000!) - hope Dave laid a few in whilst the price was still reasonable.

 

[Burns-bass]

10 hours ago, NickA said:

That Dave Gilmore was on the radio a bit back when his Black Strat was sold at auction for $3,975,000   (yes, commas not decimal places),  They asked how he could bare to part with it, to which he replied;

....well, they're just tools; Fender make a Gilmore Signature Strat for £2,000 which sounds identical, so I just use one of those when I need to.

Since when, they sold out and can't be got for blood nor reasonable amounts of money (one on Reverb for £14,000!) - hope Dave laid a few in whilst the price was still reasonable.

 

And all the cash went to charity, too. Legend!

[Burns-bass]

Guitars are speculative investments with little intrinsic value and easily replicability. There’s no reason why the should continue to increase in value, and like many of these things, once the core demographic shuffles off (men of a certain age who grew up in the 50s, 60s and 70s) the demand is likely to fall. 

By all means spend your cash on what you like, but the vintage guitar market is as fragile as any other market out there. 

[tegs07]

22 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

Guitars are speculative investments with little intrinsic value and easily replicability. There’s no reason why the should continue to increase in value, and like many of these things, once the core demographic shuffles off (men of a certain age who grew up in the 50s, 60s and 70s) the demand is likely to fall. 

By all means spend your cash on what you like, but the vintage guitar market is as fragile as any other market out there. 

It’s certainly a speculative market with no logic, but I don’t see why the next generation of guys/girls/non-binary whatever particularly in countries such as China with a rapidly growing new wealth will be any less likely to be seduced by the allure of music history than their middle aged counterparts.

Scarce and beautiful objects tend to go up in value ..”things with mojo”even more so. Check the price of a Morris Minor in the UK against the price of one in the US for example.

Edited March 24, 2021 by tegs07

[hooky_lowdown]

1 hour ago, Burns-bass said:

Guitars are speculative investments with little intrinsic value and easily replicability. There’s no reason why the should continue to increase in value, and like many of these things, once the core demographic shuffles off (men of a certain age who grew up in the 50s, 60s and 70s) the demand is likely to fall. 

By all means spend your cash on what you like, but the vintage guitar market is as fragile as any other market out there. 

The scarcity and rarity of the original fender basses will always command a premium price. They may go up or down slightly, but they will only ever increase in value. This is until in a couple or so decades time when or if some other brand is seen as a classic and becomes desirable and rare, then things may change. But until then, original fender 50s, 60s and early 70s guitars and basses will only go up in price. 

Unlike the art market where prices for famous paintings can fluctuate wildly, which is primarily based on authenticity, instruments can be dated far easier thus hold there commodity better.

[Lfalex v1.1]

Then,  the frightening point arrives.

When they stop being vintage. 

And become Antiques. Then watch the prices soar.

Edit- lifted from the internet, but it seems a reasonable set of definitions;

Antique: a collectible item at least 100 years old. Vintage: A culturally significant item ranging from 20-99 years in age, worthy of being collected. Authentic, aged pieces in various conditions. Collectible: something inherently valuable or worth more than it was originally sold for.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Lfalex v1.1