Emperor’s New Clothes?

[tegs07]

I do find the Fender hate a bit bewildering to be honest... I am not surprised early Fender and Stingray guitars are highly collectible. The man created the designs that still dominate the market to this day. The Precision, Jazz, Stingray, Telecaster, Stratocaster, Jazzmaster for me these are really pleasing aesthetic objects the e type jag, gull wing Mercedes and DB5’s of the music world.

[Doctor J]

33 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

This is an Internet forum, 90% of it is random dudes guessing - I think you maybe have got it confused with a peer reviewed academic journal or something - You asked for a logical reason why vintage could be considered different to modern- my answer was worded deliberately loosely to answer the question of “what could a logical reason be” based on things I know - but loosely enough that I might not be correct, and also I’m not going to make any claim that old wood makes better sounding instruments. But you asked for a logical reason that might apply, I provided one- discuss away . That’s how discussion forums work.

Even if you disagree shouting out “What’s your source” or asking for data points that you know conceivably don’t exist, (or if they do would be hidden within academic papers beyond most of the reader’s comprehension) is a bit of a Richard move.
For example  “The likes of the very highly rated early 80's Japanese stuff (Squier aside) has not appreciated to the same degree as the big F (or S).“ have you got a source for that? Peer reviewed study. I mean it would be interesting to have a thread and try and work out the relative increases from retail to now On a load of high end Japanese stuff, and see the degrees of change in appreciation of different brands - but nah forget it What’s your source?

I don't recall shouting anything. I'm just engaging in the discussion, no need to be so aggressive. A Richard move? Seriously? Chill out, fella.

I don't know these data points don't exist, that's why I'm asking. I'm interested to see if there actually is anything behind it. I recall an interview with Eric Johnson where he said he believed the steel used in the 50's was a better quality than the steel available after that. That's very interesting. I'd prefer to see something which actually backs it up though, that's all. It's something which can be verified, surely? If so, has somebody actually done the verification? That's what I'm asking.

It's very easy to check on the unequal appreciation I mentioned, just compare the original list prices to the going rates now. The information is out there. Very clearly.

If I'm sceptical, it's because I'm conscious there's a very lucrative industry built about creating and sustaining the myths around vintage instruments. There is so much hot air around this topic, I would love to get to the bottom of what is actually real and what is mojo 😉. I'm not interested in myths or guesses, I want something tangible. It should be possible for real information to be out there. I think it's a very interesting subject and I'd love to fully understand it. If that upsets you, well, I'm genuinely surprised.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Doctor J

[Doctor J]

24 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

I do find the Fender hate a bit bewildering to be honest... I am not surprised early Fender and Stingray guitars are highly collectible. The man created the designs that still dominate the market to this day. The Precision, Jazz, Stingray, Telecaster, Stratocaster, Jazzmaster for me these are really pleasing aesthetic objects the e type jag, gull wing Mercedes and DB5’s of the music world.

Where's the hate? They were and remain absolute genius designs which have stood the test of time. They were mass produced items, though, and suggesting there could be something better, due to an accumulated knowledge and skill buildup over the last 70 years of electric instrument manufacture, is not hate.

[tegs07]

I’ve 

10 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

Where's the hate? They were and remain absolute genius designs which have stood the test of time. They were mass produced items, though, and suggesting there could be something better, due to an accumulated knowledge and skill buildup over the last 70 years of electric instrument manufacture, is not hate.

In the short time I have been on this forum I have seen plenty of digs at Fender. Even this thread is a bit of a dig. Is a vintage Fender emperors new clothes? Is a DB5 emperors new clothes? You could buy a Honda Civic TypeR that would outperform it. 
There is no logic to buying one but it’s a DB5 FFS!!

[Doctor J]

There's a very, very large space between hate and fawning over them and it's possible for people to be in that space. It's not a binary thing, you're not necessarily one or the other. This thread is a discussion about the mythology surrounding vintage instruments, no?

[tegs07]

Not really it’s questioning the value of the guitar that started it all. Of course it’s mythology, legend, blind faith.. it’s like buying an original Apple Mac!

(Except it can still keep up with its modern counterparts).

Any vintage original that is era defining and steeped in cultural importance is going to generate massive interest and become highly collectible.

Add in the aesthetics appeal of older designs (wood gets a beautiful patina.. the more it is handled the nicer it gets if treated well) and the fact that the really early ones were not as mass produced as the slick operation that Fender is today and that allure is magnified even more.

If that’s emperors new clothes than so be it. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by tegs07

[Belka]

13 hours ago, OliverBlackman said:

I personally think age of wood (before and after it is felled) and climate it grew and is stored in will make a difference. After all the wood vibrates, so acoustically at least there will difference between instruments. 
 

That’s part of why I prefer the instruments from builders who hand select woods for their wood store and let them age. 
 

Also weren’t the pickups hand wound in the 50’s- early 60s?

There is definitely a big difference between vintage pickups and modern reproductions of '50s, '60s and '70s pickups. In my opinion, although things like hand winding/scatter wound, and the exact composition of the AlNiCo 5 magnets makes a difference, the main factor is that most modern repros are wound a lot hotter than the originals, with more resistance. Pretty much all Duncan, Fralin, Lollar, Novak, Wizard, Fender  etc. 'vintage' jazz pickups are wound at around 8-10k ohm resistance. In the early '60s, I think Jazz pickups typically measured between 7-8k, and by the '70s 6-6.5k was pretty standard. I can understand why modern pickups are wound hotter - imagine spending £200 on a set of vintage reproduction pickups, installing them in your bass, and discovering that you've lost 30-40% of your output volume - the builders would be inundated with returns and it wouldn't be a viable business. However, low output means a smoother, less middy sound with more sparkle to the highs and a detail to the sound that modern pickups don't seem to get. 

To be fair, I think Aguilar wind their '60s and '70s vintage pickups at around 7.5k, and Fralin also offers underwound as well as overwound pickups, which while not known nearly as much as the overwound, are likely to be far more authentic.

I focused on Jazz pickups as I think Precisions are a bit closer to the originals - they're wound in series and so were always higher in output than Jazz pickups anyway.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Belka

[Lfalex v1.1]

I was considering some of the issues raised in this thread,  thinking; I'd buy a vintage bass if I picked it up and it played well and sounded good. 

Then it struck me that string technology has progressed since the 50's/60's, and that a vintage bass wouldn't sound like it originally did by virtue of having more modern strings. 

Strings (and electrics) strike me as the area in which bass manufacturing has advanced most obviously. The woodworking and mechanical engineering less so.

[ezbass]

30 minutes ago, Lfalex v1.1 said:

I was considering some of the issues raised in this thread,  thinking; I'd buy a vintage bass if I picked it up and it played well and sounded good. 

Then it struck me that string technology has progressed since the 50's/60's, and that a vintage bass wouldn't sound like it originally did by virtue of having more modern strings. 

Strings (and electrics) strike me as the area in which bass manufacturing has advanced most obviously. The woodworking and mechanical engineering less so.

This was how I ended up with my '63 P. I had gone up town to buy a '50s reissue. Found one in Denmark St, London and thought it was nice enough. However, as I'd made the effort to go uptown, I thought I'd pop over to The Bass Centre that was in E1 at the time. They didn't have a '50s RI, but there was a tatty looking old P hanging up and I asked if I could give it a go. It was amazing, despite its extremely road worn appearance. Sounded like every top class P bass recording I'd ever heard and was lovely to play. Other basses of the same vintage may be dogs. That said, my new JMJ Mustang nails that same tone and feel at a fraction of the cost.

[StickyDBRmf]

Open E - do you have GAS? Or did you just want to start trouble? 5 PAGES OF THIS 

[tegs07]

7 hours ago, StickyDBRmf said:

Open E - do you have GAS? Or did you just want to start trouble? 5 PAGES OF THIS 

Haha every one has an opinion but it is a bit like going on a VW owners club forum and asking 1960’s Beatles are they worth it, or should I just buy a late 2000’s GTI?

 

 

[peteb]

There really is no 'right' answer here.

The thing is that an old Fender Precision is the predominant ‘reference sound’ for the electric bass. If you don’t want that particular sound, then a Ken Smith or a Fodera, etc will technically be a better bass than an old Fender. In fact, you have literally hundreds of different options to choose from. However, many people do want that sound and prefer to use the real thing rather than try and get some other bass to sound as close as possible (especially when recording). There is a reason why so many session players and producers will spend a lot of money for a vintage Fender to use in the studio.

There are also other factors to consider. Back in the day, everyone used to customise their 70s Fenders so that they all played / sounded slightly different and, as we all know, QC was patchy at best and there are some great 70s Fenders out there and some complete dogs (I know, I owned one of each).

There is also sentiment to consider. When I was a kid, virtually every one of my favourite bass players used a P bass, so that’s what I went and got as soon as I could possibly afford it. It was quite a big thing then, almost like a statement of intent that you had ambitions to be a serious player. In those days, Fender had virtually no competition, they hadn’t diluted their brand and every one was built out in California. Soon after, they started manufacturing in Japan, the QC of the US models got even worse and suddenly there was loads of competition from other builders who were producing decent quality basses. 

In my subjective experience, old Fenders do tend to feel and sound slightly different (for good and band). Whether that is what you want from a bass or not will largely determine if you think that they are the Emperor’s new (old) clothes… 

Edited March 27, 2021 by peteb

[Open E]

On 26/03/2021 at 23:15, StickyDBRmf said:

Open E - do you have GAS? Or did you just want to start trouble? 5 PAGES OF THIS 

Gotta say I didn't expect Italian violins to come into the discussion. To be honest if I could afford it I would buy a 1961 Fender Jazz (my birth year) but I can't afford one so that's not possible. My one regret over the years is selling my Early 80's Gold Jazz bass with gold plated fittings back in 1990 for £300 - not really for the money aspect but I just loved that thing, but was a young man with bills to pay.