Zero Fret Height

[BarnsleyBoy]

Morning All,

Joined up last night so thought I'd best jump straight in. My Hohner B2A is the only bass I have owned - just love the style! I had it set up properly for the first time in it's life last year - full fret dress etc. and I thought it would play like a dream, but it's still a bit hard going. The action just doesn't seem (to me) to be low enough. Now I'm wondering whether the zero fret is too high and needs to be lowered. If I put a capo on the first fret it plays great and is a massive improvement. I've searched all over the interweb and there doesn't seem to be very much about zero frets and the bass. Anyone out there got any advice on best way to take down the fret height and what clearance I should be looking at at the first fret. For guitar, I'd be taking the nut slots down so that I get 0.3mm clearance at the 1st fret - that makes a massive difference to the playability. Obviously bass strings are that bit heftier, so I don't know if 0.3 would be too low. I'm thinking maybe some careful sanding with 400 grit and then recrowning and a polish.

I've got my feeler guages at the ready!

[neepheid]

Presumably the neck relief has been sorted out?  If you've got some wiggle room, perhaps straighten up the neck a touch more?

[hooky_lowdown]

Action is a personal preference. One thing to keep in mind if you prefer a lower action is the choice of strings, or more importantly the tension of the strings. For a low action you need high tension strings, so the oscillation of the string when played is smaller. 

A bass with low or medium tension strings won't get a low action without lots of fret buzz. To avoid fret buzz you need high tension strings.

As for the zero fret, sanding with 400 grit is fine to lower it, done this many times myself, just mask off the fretboard and area around the fret.

[BarnsleyBoy]

24 minutes ago, neepheid said:

Presumably the neck relief has been sorted out?  If you've got some wiggle room, perhaps straighten up the neck a touch more?

I'll give it a tweakie and see if I get an improvement.

I was really suprised when I adjusted the nut on one of my guitars how much of an improvement there was to playability, which then got me thinking about the bass and how much I had fought with it over the years! The clearance at the first fret just seems to be very high.

Point taken about the strings @hooky_lowdown, I've never thought about string tension. I've always felt a bit limited by the double ball end issue, so now I'm toying with buying an adapter so the instrument can take standard strings and I can do a bit more experimenting.

[nilebodgers]

Fender 1st fret action spec is 22thou, or 0.55mm. Usually the range 0.5mm to 0.6mm is typical. Very light action players might be able to shave it a bit lower, I’d not get away with it without buzzing.

[BarnsleyBoy]

I've got .75 on the E and .5 on the G, so it looks like it needs a shade off the bass side. I've given the truss rod an 1/8th of a turn which has slightly improved things, but I think that's about as much as I'll get on it.

[bertbass]

The zero fret should be the same height as the other frets and not higher.  There seems to be a lot of opinions on this but if you consider what you did with a capo it should make sense.

[BarnsleyBoy]

I suppose the worst I could do is take it too low, and have to replace the fret, or even get the fret taken out and replaced with a traditional nut!

[MoonBassAlpha]

How about replacing the zero fret with an adjustable  (Warwick style) nut?

[rmorris]

On 08/04/2021 at 13:26, bertbass said:

The zero fret should be the same height as the other frets and not higher.  There seems to be a lot of opinions on this but if you consider what you did with a capo it should make sense.

I hear that a lot and it makes sense - except that depending on the relief it can allow for 'back rattle' where a fretted string buzzes against a fret on it's 'non-sounding' section back to the nut/first fret.

You can, of course, argue that the string shouldn't be moving there - but it can still vibrate a little depending on how hard/accurately you are fretting it.

I've had a bass setup where this happened - one place only - sixth fret bottom E. Amplified sound unaffected but still a bit annoying imo.

[Greg Edwards69]

In essence, a zero fret does the same job at a nut and should be treated at such, but the the same caveat when filing it down - "you can't put back what you take away".

The fact that you mention the action feels great when capo'd at the first fret and too high without the capo tells you that the trussrod and neck are fine, it's just the zero fret that it too high.

As far as measurements go, I find Fender's setup specs to be good for pretty much all basses.  They suggest 0.22" clearance at the first fret (about 0.5mm). 

A good way to quickly check nut height (or zero fret) is to hold the string down at the third fret and gently push the string against the fret fretwire. You should hear a metallic 'clink' without much pressure, and the string barely moving. If you feel you need to apply significant pressure it's too high, if it's already touching the fret it's too low.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Greg Edwards69
Noticed I had high and low transposed.

[PlungerModerno]

There's as many opinions on zero fret height as nut height. Unlike a nut where if you go too low and can break out the superglue and some bone dust or baking powder, adding height to a zero fret is not really practical. This is the advice I'd follow to dial it in gradually:

On 15/04/2021 at 14:20, Greg Edwards69 said:

A good way to quickly check nut height (or zero fret) is to hold the string down at the third fret and gently push the string against the fret fretwire. You should hear a metallic 'clink' without much pressure, and the string barely moving. If you feel you need to apply significant pressure it's too low, if it's already touching the fret it's too high.

Edit for clarity: I capo or hold the string against the 3rd fret, then gently fret the first fret to judge nut action. You can also use a couple of thin layers of paper or a feeler gauge to check/measure it. It helps to get it consistent across the strings.

Edited April 17, 2021 by PlungerModerno
clarity

[bertbass]

There are many opinions about this but from my perspective, apart from open strings, every other fret acts as a zero fret so the zero fret height should be no different from the rest of the frets.

[Stub Mandrel]

My perspective is that when fretting a note you push the string down below the level of the frets and  the break angle means the string goes slightly upwards as it leaves the fret. A zero fret does not usually have this effect so a very tiny excess height may be needed to stop open strings buzzing (which is why nuts are usually cut a little higher than fret height too).

Be cautious, if you drop the zero fret too much it's harder to replace than a nut, but careful inspection of the clearance at et first fret should guide you

[PlungerModerno]

On 17/04/2021 at 12:35, bertbass said:

There are many opinions about this but from my perspective, apart from open strings, every other fret acts as a zero fret so the zero fret height should be no different from the rest of the frets.

I think for a lot of players you're right, but I think having a very tiny extra bit of height is needed for some players, if they want the lowest overall action and hate any kind of buzz, I think a tiny bit is a good idea.