Band PA

[grandad]

1 hour ago, Dad3353 said:

For what the OP has specified, I'd say that a Yamaha Stagepass or equivalent would be fine. There have been some interesting posts with similar gear: a pair of 10 or 12 boxes on stands and a small mixer. When (if...) things develop, it's easy to upgrade depending on future needs, but these needs are, as yet, unknown, so... Yamaha, Wharfedale, HH... These are all suitable. 

The Stagepas 600 is much preferred to the 400. A great little PA that is very portable, great for vocals, and very straightforward to use. The feedback rejection works well. 

[Phil Starr]

Before we get too carried away the OP needs to come back and tell us more about his band. A lot of the recommendations so far would be inadequate for a band with rock band levels with even just a moderately loud drummer. The Yamaha Stagepas recommendation for example, I own and use a Stagepas 300, or rather I use the little mixer amp. Neither the 300 or 500 are anything like loud enough for band use, we did try the 300's as vocal monitors but you just couldn't hear them. the output is 113db and working with a drummer you need 120dB+. the 500 wasn't much louder. When they updated to the 400 and 600 they increased the sound output considerably and they might do the trick but i have to say I haven't tried those models. The 300 and 500 were really designed for acoustic and semi acoustic acts for which they are brilliant.

Some of the Behringer speakers won't go loud enough either. I'm not anti-Behringer, I even recommended their mixers and the power amps work well if you want to buy speakers from Music Tribe you probably need to go to Turbosound which are more expensive. The Alto's are OK but don't sound as good as the Wharfedales and are pricier new.

I'm dubious about that HH, it isn't 1600W. The maximum handling for a 12" speaker is around 300W. There's a lot of distorted claims with 1000W amplifiers supposedly being built into 12" PA speakers, all bunkum I'm afraid. Has anyone actually tried this speaker.

The active mixer and passive speakers isn't a bad idea for used. Those Yamaha EMX's are great and combine them with the S112 Club Series speakers will give you a really serious Starter PA. the only difference between the S112IV and the S112V is speakons swapped for jacks in the later models internally they use the same Eminence drivers. Peavey made a similar mixer amp and the more powerful Behringer mixer amps are fine too. Avoid Peavey PA speakers, reliable but they never did the vocalists any favours.

I searched eBay with the same search criteria i only got 170 hits for the UK half of which were for car parts with PA in the serial no's. I saw nothing under £200 I would gig with and in fact no complete band PA's at that price. even under £500 I couldn't find anything which was decent value for money. A lot of the stuff under £200 was broken though my hand slipped on a pair of broken actives i know how to fix

[Woodinblack]

On 13/04/2021 at 11:23, BassAdder27 said:

what about Alto TS312 cabs x 2 

Are they any good as a starter?? 

We have been using the Alto TS312 for about 150 gigs now. They are not perfect, but they are cheap and loud and do the jobs for us, using 3x vocals, 1 sax, bit of guitar etc, all from an X18 mixer (although any mixer does).

They are not as good as many of the other brands mentioned here, but they were £300 for two with poles and leads of a facebook group page, and they have never let me down.

[Chienmortbb]

On 13/04/2021 at 09:05, Len_derby said:

A few points to think about from my experience.

Where and how are you going to store it and consequently transport it? This may affect your purchasing decisions if space is tight in a vehicle or house/flat.

If you’re working to a budget don’t forget to factor in mics, stands, cables, power extensions etc. The bill can get big very quickly.

Who’s going to run the PA when it’s in use? I think, in a rock/pop setting, getting a good sound out of a PA is as much a skill as playing one of the instruments. Someone has to be interested, learn how to do it (if they don’t know already) and take control of the mixer.

There are lots of good bargains around in used gear. Good luck!

In these days I think the rule should be that if you sing, you buy your own Mic.I use one of those foam shields too and wash it after every use. It is a health/hygiene matter and I would not trust anyone to make sure my mic is clean. Our band all have there own mics and another thing was to get a coloured cable.We did this by accident but it makes it easier to trace problems on stage.

[BassAdder60]

Thanks for more advice ok some extra info 

The band will be a typical pub rock band with one guitar average hitter drummer me on bass and one vocalist ( female ) and guitarist adding BV 

I know a local band using the Alto TS312 cabs and they appear to be loud enough for our typical venues etc

I’ve always thought that a genuine 300 to 400W per side is about the minimum more is better of course for extra headroom 

I think the singer is looking for new PA bundles without mikes as we have those already 

 

 

[Dan Dare]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

I'm dubious about that HH, it isn't 1600W. The maximum handling for a 12" speaker is around 300W. There's a lot of distorted claims with 1000W amplifiers supposedly being built into 12" PA speakers, all bunkum I'm afraid. Has anyone actually tried this speaker.

I agree that 300w is about the upper limit for a 12, Phil. However, even if the power ratings are massively over-stated, it has to have 300 real watts on board. I've not tried it, but SoS reviewed it very favourably (see the link in the eBay listing) and at more than twice the price it is on offer at currently. I'm pretty confident in their reviews. Over the years, I've found them reliable. I'm thinking seriously of ordering a pair for small gigs.

[Dan Dare]

24 minutes ago, BassAdder27 said:

I think the singer is looking for new PA bundles without mikes as we have those already 

The problem with bundles is that you are stuck with whatever the retailer chooses. If you get good speakers at a bargain price, the mixer is likely to be compromised to fit the budget.

Mixers at modest price points tend to have limited features. For vocal only use, you only need a small number of channels, but decent, flexible eq and onboard reverb (not dozens of effects - a few usable ones are all you need) to save having to add an additional fx unit. I'd be looking for a used small Soundcraft, Allen & Heath or similar.

For reasons stated previously, I'd opt for new speakers, but buying used mixers and stands is pretty safe, provided you can satisfy yourself that they have not been abused. 

[ubit]

2 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

Where and how are you going to store it and consequently transport it? This may affect your purchasing decisions if space is tight in a vehicle or house/flat.

This is certainly an issue. I own our pa outright. I bought it and paid for it. I had to however let out guitar player take the bass bins to keep in his shed as I didn't have enough room in my car/house. It made more sense for him to carry some of the pa to gigs anyway. Trouble is, its been so long since we have played due to my job and then Covid that I am worried that he is going to think he owns the bass bins.

[BassAdder60]

Would the Wharfedale PSX112 be loud enough for typical pub gigs ?  

They are rated 350W per side and next up is the heavier 15” version at 450W each 
 

 

[pete.young]

2 hours ago, BassAdder27 said:

Thanks for more advice ok some extra info 

The band will be a typical pub rock band with one guitar average hitter drummer me on bass and one vocalist ( female ) and guitarist adding BV 

I know a local band using the Alto TS312 cabs and they appear to be loud enough for our typical venues etc

I’ve always thought that a genuine 300 to 400W per side is about the minimum more is better of course for extra headroom 

I think the singer is looking for new PA bundles without mikes as we have those already 

 

 

We have had some decent deals on PA gear and lighting in the past from Why Buy New who are just down the road in Colchester. (Although they seem to prefer to post stuff at the moment for some reason!)

https://www.whybuynew.co.uk/sound-pa/speakers/speaker-packages/

[Dan Dare]

18 minutes ago, BassAdder27 said:

Would the Wharfedale PSX112 be loud enough for typical pub gigs ?  

They are rated 350W per side and next up is the heavier 15” version at 450W each 

Your call. It's your money. I think they will be too limited, especially once you push them. Resale on them will be nix, too. You can only go so cheap before quality is too compromised.

If you're looking at Anderton's, these  - RCF ART 312A Mk4 12" Active Speaker - EACH - Andertons Music Co. - will be a much better bet and will survive upgrading (easily good enough to add a sub to at a later date). Don't be put off those HHs discussed earlier. The Sound on Sound review was very positive and I've found their reviews to be truthful and not hyped (I discovered the PA I own - Fohhn Linea system - via their reviews and I'm very happy with it).

Edited April 15, 2021 by Dan Dare

[Phil Starr]

5 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

I agree that 300w is about the upper limit for a 12, Phil. However, even if the power ratings are massively over-stated, it has to have 300 real watts on board. I've not tried it, but SoS reviewed it very favourably (see the link in the eBay listing) and at more than twice the price it is on offer at currently. I'm pretty confident in their reviews. Over the years, I've found them reliable. I'm thinking seriously of ordering a pair for small gigs.

I was really thinking of BassAdder here. I've no knowledge of these so I'm not saying they are good or bad. I just have an aversion to over claiming and this is way over the top. Sound on Sound are usually pretty good but they don't often slag any gear off either. Fohhn stuff is nice though. 

[Phil Starr]

3 hours ago, BassAdder27 said:

Would the Wharfedale PSX112 be loud enough for typical pub gigs ?  

They are rated 350W per side and next up is the heavier 15” version at 450W each 

I've not tried them but they seem closely related to the Titan. John (chienmortbb) and I pulled them apart online over a couple of evenings. My Titan and his PSX. We were basically looking at the plate amps with a view to using them for other self built cabs. They are cheaper to buy than the plate amps on their own! A lot of this stuff uses pretty much the same electronics and so does this. The PSX is much heavier than the Titan and the amp for the tweeter is different. From the photos we took that night the magnet on the bass driver looks bigger on the PSX which would be a good thing. Wharfedale are a funny old company owned by a huge Chinese company who manufacture in Hong Kong but apparently engineering design done here and more engineering led than a lot of co's. Oddly Wharfedale who started in Yorkshire are much bigger around the world than in the UK. My guess it that it would be as loud as the Titan which would match the big brands for volume. I've no idea if it handles bass any better than the Titan but at modest levels John reckoned it sounded great. I suspect they'd sound very similar as most of the electronics and the horn driver are the same. Yes you'll lose money when you sell but at £125ea new how much can you lose, £50 per speaker? You'd probably lose roughly the same for the RCF312's which I really rate but which are twice the price. I've the 10" RCF's as monitors (ART 310's) and they are great and would be loud enough. The RCF's will handle bass.

 

[Chienmortbb]

4 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

Your call. It's your money. I think they will be too limited, especially once you push them. Resale on them will be nix, too. You can only go so cheap before quality is too compromised.

If you're looking at Anderton's, these  - RCF ART 312A Mk4 12" Active Speaker - EACH - Andertons Music Co. - will be a much better bet and will survive upgrading (easily good enough to add a sub to at a later date). Don't be put off those HHs discussed earlier. The Sound on Sound review was very positive and I've found their reviews to be truthful and not hyped (I discovered the PA I own - Fohhn Linea system - via their reviews and I'm very happy with it).

The PSX112 is very conservatively rated and unlike many so called quality brands has a discete Class D bass amp. while I think RCF excellent, te PSX112 is well made sounds good and certainly a cut above the EV and Mackie actives that use chip amps for their supposed 1000Ws. Wharfedale rate their products conservatively and at £228 a pair new the PSX112 are really good. 

They are being re-launched as Tourus  soon and a bluetooth version and a  (with illuminated logos) are being added to bring them in line with the rest of the range, They have handles on every side so are really easy to handle.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Chienmortbb

[BassAdder60]

Do you think PSX112 would handle typical pub gigs if used for two mikes on vocals for rock covers band 

Not huge venues but large to medium sized U.K. pubs where volumes have to be sensible 

[Dan Dare]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

Sound on Sound are usually pretty good but they don't often slag any gear off either

A friend who used to edit quite a major national magazine (not music related, but the principle is the same) told me why you rarely if ever see reviews slagging off products. They receive many more products for review than they can ever fit in every week or month. So they don't even consider reviewing those that aren't at least competent. If something is basically sound, but has minor flaws, they may review it and point the flaws out. However, there's no point in wasting scarce column inches on something that is no good. It won't benefit the reader, who would be better being told about things that are worthy of consideration. Makes sense to me.

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

at £125ea new how much can you lose, £50 per speaker? You'd probably lose roughly the same for the RCF312's

True, but the RCFs will survive an upgrade and likely won't need to be sold. Add a sub or subs and they will be excellent for mid and top duty. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Dan Dare

[Jakester]

Just noticed this for sale on here, looks like a decent setup (not mine, don’t know the seller, never used the kit etc etc):

 

[BassAdder60]

Yes just seen that originally advertised in 2018 !! 

It’s in Wales though and my singer is Cambridge 

[BassBunny]

20 hours ago, pete.young said:

We have had some decent deals on PA gear and lighting in the past from Why Buy New who are just down the road in Colchester. (Although they seem to prefer to post stuff at the moment for some reason!)

https://www.whybuynew.co.uk/sound-pa/speakers/speaker-packages/

Another vote for Whybuynew. Have bought quite a bit from them over the years.

[Chienmortbb]

18 hours ago, BassAdder27 said:

Do you think PSX112 would handle typical pub gigs if used for two mikes on vocals for rock covers band 

Not huge venues but large to medium sized U.K. pubs where volumes have to be sensible 

Yes  My band has used Mackie Thumps for this in the past and I think the PSX112s would be better. The Thumos they were more than adequate. However the Thumps use the TDA8954 Class D chip amp, theoretically capable of about 300Ws  but in reality it needs a lot more cooling that the thumps are designed for to reach that figure, despite the fact that they have 1000W on the back. The PSX112 have a discrete(ish) amp designed around the IRS2092 chip but drives two powerful MOSFETs allowing more heat disppation. It is loosely based on the Infineon/IR Audamp7 reference design. With the  higher voltage rails, this amp can get close to 400W altghough that would also depend on the power supply. However is does suggest that the design and quoted specs are conservative. In fact the same amp is used in the PSX15 with higher voltage rails to give a claimed  350W. Agains a quick calculation suggest that this is conservatively rated.

[BassAdder60]

The PSX112 are lighter which may become a preference to our lady singer !!

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by BassAdder27

[Supernaut]

On 13/04/2021 at 07:59, BassAdder27 said:

Our newly formed rock covers band needs to find a PA system for our female vocalist 

You're welcome.

[Nicko]

On 14/04/2021 at 06:37, Downunderwonder said:

While no doubt your typical vocalist is a gear hauling absentee, in my experience some of the females put the guitarist to absolute shame.

Not all vocalists are the same.  My last band had a female vocalist whose idea of setting up was to sit and chat with her boyfriend while drinking a glass of wine and managing to put a mic on a stand when we'd finished.  The female guitarist on the other hand was happy to lug her 100 watt vale amp on her own.

The PA is and should be the responsibility of the singer. Although the band I was in bought collectively with an agreement on buying out anyone that left, when I left the band folded and the band therefore couldn't buy me out and I had to accept either buying it from them or selling it to the vocalist at well below it's value.

The band I was in 4 piece rock playing pubs used a Behringer x12 and a pair of Mackie thump 12s.  More than adequate although new the setup would be around £1300.  Its the speakers that are expensive so go second hand for those.  The X12 was lightweight and did everything we needed it to do but isn't the cheapest option and of course you need to either have a laptop or tablet to access it.

[BassAdder60]

I’m so amazed that singers apply to bands and in so many cases go not have any PA  or even fold back etc

They also tend not to know anything about setting one up and EQ, reverb, feedback etc etc 

Hey that’s band life for you ! 

Edited April 16, 2021 by BassAdder27

[ricksterphil]

On 13/04/2021 at 11:16, NoRhino said:

Take the singer with you when looking to buy to make sure she's comfortable helping to carry it in and out of venues.

😶

Of course she will be happy carrying the PA in and out of venues....

..........in parallel universe 😂