Magnetic pickups with wide flat (piezo-like) frequency response

[chyc]

Greeting basschatters. There seems to be a market for magnetic pickups, each with their unique sounds and tones. There's also a (smaller) market for piezo for their large frequency response and acoustic-like sounds. I would like to retro fit the latter's sound to one of my basses, but I don't have the brains to retro fit a piezo pickup to my bass.

So, in short, is there a magnetic pickup (single J coil, or split P coil) that even approaches an acoustic-like tone? The Fishman Fluence look like manufacturers are starting to look at augmenting the humble magnetic coil, but nothing that I've seen outright says it can give a wide and reasonably flat response. The Fluence is also frustratingly humbucker size. I'm aware of modelling, but this isn't really what I'm after and I've been disappointed with the results of that in the past.

Any help appreciated!

[LeftyJ]

For emulating an acoustic tone, I'd say the amplifier is much more important. A passive splitcoil (i.e. P-bass) or the neck pickup of a Jazz Bass through a wide-range amp with a good presence or brightness control to shave off the brittle top end to your taste will actually get you fairly close IMO as long as you keep things clean and properly EQ'd. 

That said, installing piezo's in an electric bass isn't all that hard. Most will come pre-mount in a complete bridge assembly, and will only require hooking up the electronics to your existing jack, stashing the preamp and battery somewhere in the electronics compartment (if there's room, since most piezo systems will be active and require a 9V battery) and adding a blend control or switch. I've owned an Esh Stinger I for a couple of years that had a Schaller 2000 piezo bridge and it worked great. In that particular bass, the piezo's are there to compliment the magnetic pickups and Esh wasn't going for an acoustic tone at all, just added brightness and cut to the magnetic tone. However, through my EBS amp with the EQ flat it did sound a bit like my ABG. 

[Doctor J]

Q-Tuners might be along the lines of what you're looking for, in the sense that they provide a very flat, very clear wide-frequency band tone. I have first generation set in a bass for the last 15 years or so. Mine are big dual coil units but they do make a J sized model.

https://www.q-tuner.com/about/

 

[Lfalex v1.1]

This has Fishman monorail bridges, which sound great. These are rebated into the body,  but could be surface-mounted.

Fishman also do an all-in-one unit as used in the Spectorcore, a well-liked bass in these parts. 

Having recently acquired the Ibanez, I can see the appeal of full-range piezos. They're also good in my NS5CR EUB.

[chyc]

4 hours ago, LeftyJ said:

For emulating an acoustic tone, I'd say the amplifier is much more important. A passive splitcoil (i.e. P-bass) or the neck pickup of a Jazz Bass through a wide-range amp with a good presence or brightness control to shave off the brittle top end to your taste will actually get you fairly close IMO as long as you keep things clean and properly EQ'd. 

Agreed, an amp does go a long way, but my amps are about as good as I can get it and they still aren't good enough in my opinion. If I played a short passage on my bass and uploaded a clip, I'd be genuinely interested in how close people could get to an acoustic sound on EQ alone. Maybe I don't need to do anything more than twiddle knobs, but I've been twiddling a while now with no joy.

3 hours ago, Doctor J said:

Q-Tuners might be along the lines of what you're looking for, in the sense that they provide a very flat, very clear wide-frequency band tone. I have first generation set in a bass for the last 15 years or so. Mine are big dual coil units but they do make a J sized model.

I've never heard of them, thanks! The words on their website talk a good game, but the clips they post aren't exactly helpful to me in making a decision. I'm not one for playing an entire piece using just harmonics, nor distortion.

[Hellzero]

Do you have a sound sample of what you call acoustic-like sounds, because it can be anything from a harsh ear bleeding tone to an organic double bass tone ?

And what bass would like to fit it ?

[6feet7]

Have a look at this lot. Active (without the need for a battery) magnetic / piezo type pickup

Not sure if it will work with a standard bass but worth a look.

https://mi-si.com/products/

[Hellzero]

Urm, urm, since when an active system doesn't require some electrical power ?

These are the usual acoustic guitar suspects...

[chyc]

4 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

Do you have a sound sample of what you call acoustic-like sounds, because it can be anything from a harsh ear bleeding tone to an organic double bass tone ?

That would have been an obvious thing to post. When I've been in a shop (remember those?), I tried the Ibanez SRH500F. That thing was amazing. I could get an acoustic bass with the treble up, and something approaching a double bass when you rolled the treble off, across the entire fingerboard. I think the following post covers what I'm after. I can always roll-off the top when I want so it's the last section from 2:08, although all the tones here I wouldn't say no to:

Less for tone, if you could tell me how to play like Marco in the following solo, I'd be much obliged

 

4 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

And what bass would like to fit it ?

Warwick PJ, similar to the one pictured below. Even if I was brave enough to try a piezo pickup on it, the procedure would be quite invasive on this bass because of the bridge system.

[chyc]

5 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

Urm, urm, since when an active system doesn't require some electrical power ?

My only thought was that there's some form of capacitor there. It does say it needs charging.

I'm not sure which pickup I'm supposed to be looking at on that page though...

[Lfalex v1.1]

https://shop.warwick.de/en/parts-for-instruments/warwick-spare-parts/bass-bridges-tailpieces/19320/warwick-piezo-saddles-for-2-piece-3d-bridge

x4, naturally.

You may need to swap the bridge unit out, and maybe get someone to drill a hole (with a Forstner bit?) Between the bridge recess and bridge pick-up rout. Then the wires can run through to the control cavity.

Edit- is your Warwick fretted? You'll not get very close to the Ibanez SRH500f tone,  as a good chunk of that is "fretlessness"

Edited April 13, 2021 by Lfalex v1.1

[chyc]

6 minutes ago, Lfalex v1.1 said:

https://shop.warwick.de/en/parts-for-instruments/warwick-spare-parts/bass-bridges-tailpieces/19320/warwick-piezo-saddles-for-2-piece-3d-bridge

Thanks. Even with a Warwick-made part it would still be quite an invasive procedure no? I'd rather swap pickups than route wood.

[chyc]

38 minutes ago, Lfalex v1.1 said:

Edit- is your Warwick fretted? You'll not get very close to the Ibanez SRH500f tone,  as a good chunk of that is "fretlessness"

It's fretless.

[Lfalex v1.1]

17 minutes ago, chyc said:

It's fretless.

That'll help!

One more thought; how is the bridge earthed? (I've never dismantled any of my Warwicks to that degree) can the cables from the piezo saddles be run through the hole that carries the earth lead? Presumably that goes from the bridge to the control cavity?

[Hellzero]

On Warwick's the bridge is earthed.

That said, @chyc the sound you're after can only be achieved using piezo pickup(s).

You could get an approximation of it with piezo saddles in the bridge and a dedicated piezo preamp in your own Warwick, but the cost will become prohibitive.

Why not buy a second hand Ibanez SRH500F or an amazing Ibanez AFR (the new generation is only fretted, but you could have it defretted or use a plectrum to get that Steve Swallow tone on a fretted piezo equipped bass).

Concerning Marco's tone and solo ability, it's easy : listen to a lot of bebop soli as well as bebop walking bass lines and ... practice a LOT ! 😉

Monk Montgomery and Ray Brown II V I progressions are very good starting points (and ending points too). 🤦🏻‍♂️😂

Edited April 13, 2021 by Hellzero
Missing words

[chyc]

10 minutes ago, Lfalex v1.1 said:

How is the bridge earthed?

I can't see a cable coming into the cavity from the bridge directly. My guess without removing the pickups is that the earth is daisy chained from the bridge pickup.

[Lfalex v1.1]

That's just as good. The piezo cables could go through that hole instead,  and then into the control cavity via the cable run from the bridge pickup. 

Failing that, grab a S/H SRH500f as Hellzero suggested or even an Ibanez EDA900/905 (or Afirma!) and get it defretted. The various options cost about £400, £200-£300 and rather a lot respectively!

Edit- or a SpectorCore fretless. 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Lfalex v1.1

[LukeFRC]

If you are switching pickups... Q timers as meantioned, or something using Er I can’t remember what it’s called, different technology , lace alumatone, villex ... 

but if it’s a Warwick streamer with an active pj set - it’s never going to have a piezo tone but I would change the preamp before the pickups. Personally I would get an east Uni pre but other hifi preamps are available. I think that would make a bigger difference than the pickups

[Lfalex v1.1]

You can have a second master volume for instruments with a mixed pickup set- 1 for magnetic (and the pan pot that goes with it) and one for the piezo. Works perfectly on the Ibanez. You can have all or nothing of either or your preferred blend of both. Only issue might be on-the-fly changes when playing live.

[6feet7]

2 hours ago, Hellzero said:

Urm, urm, since when an active system doesn't require some electrical power ?

These are the usual acoustic guitar suspects...

Just have a little read of the website  60 seconds recharge of some sort of electrical gubbins attached to the jack plug gives up to 15 hours use, so no need for a battery.

[TheGreek]

A set of tapewound strings will go some way to give you the fretless/ double bass tone that you're after.

If you feel you lack the skills to fit a Piezo have you thought about contacting your local luthier? 

[Doctor J]

Knowing the type of tone you're after now, I would say just buy one of those Ibanez. You're going to spend a lot of money hacking up that lovely Streamer and not end up with the sound you're looking for, it's just not that kind of bass. Keep an eye out for a second hand Ibanez and spare the Streamer.

[itu]

2 hours ago, 6feet7 said:

Have a look at this lot. Active (without the need for a battery) magnetic / piezo type pickup

Not sure if it will work with a standard bass but worth a look.

https://mi-si.com/products/

Well, there is a need for a power source, here it is a super capacitor. It could be recharged in few seconds, here the charging current is probably limited by the electronics. That could be the reason for such a long charge time, 1 minute.

The basic idea of the MiSi pickup is functional: a basic magnet-coil pickup and a MEMS (MicroElectroMechanical System) acceleration sensor. Guessing/ If this is a two band system, the MEMS takes care of the low end, and the low wound coil handles the high end. \guessinG

I had an idea of combining a piezo (hi) and a MEMS (lo), but haven't finalized it. I did the MEMS part a bit over 20 years ago. Real low end driver, down to DC. But piezos take quite some design time, their features change if any parameter (thickness, shape, diameter, glue...) is changed.

[chyc]

1 minute ago, Hellzero said:

That said, @chyc the sound you're after can only be achieved using piezo pickup(s).

 

27 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

Knowing the type of tone you're after now, I would say just buy one of those Ibanez. You're going to spend a lot of money hacking up that lovely Streamer and not end up with the sound you're looking for, it's just not that kind of bass. Keep an eye out for a second hand Ibanez and spare the Streamer.

These are perhaps the answer I was expecting but didn't want to hear. I was hoping that technology was advancing enough that a conventionally shaped pickup could pass as a piezo these days (and I wasn't prepared to hack up the Streamer, that's why I'm asking for conventional pickups!) For what it's worth, I probably would have bought an Ibanez by now, but space is at a premium here and the upright bass is already already taking up a fair chunk of our living space. As for swapping, yeah I may be up for that, but I've been on the same two electrics (other is a fretted Sandberg in case you wonder) for over 10 years now and have grown somewhat attached.

Just to throw it in here, after some searching I've found an Ibanez with both magnetic pickups and their aerosilk piezo system: the Ibanez SRF700. If it's close to the SRH500 when on piezo that would be a killer versatile bass.

 

Thanks all for the very helpful replies.

 

[Hellzero]

1 hour ago, 6feet7 said:

Just have a little read of the website  60 seconds recharge of some sort of electrical gubbins attached to the jack plug gives up to 15 hours use, so no need for a battery.

That's an electrical power source and technically a battery, but I wouldn't pick up an instrument with a super capacitor in it. Lithium batteries tend to explode, super capacitors do burn (overheating at very very high temperature in fact) very quickly if charging voltage exceeds the maximum voltage of the super capacitor... Unmastered technology is always an issue.