The heretic thread approved by Roger Sadowsky or For those who pretend tone doesn't come from wood...

[Geek99]

2 hours ago, leschirons said:

Okay, I've just done my own test. 

Same bass.  Same amp. Same flat settings. Finger style in same position over pickup.

Only variable,  three glasses of Fitou in between.  It does actually make a difference to the perceived tone. Tomorrow evening, I  will repeat, but with a Montrachet and see what transpires.

Yes, but what vintage, and what were you wearing when drinking the fitou? Hmm? These factors are extremely important ...

 

 

 

🍿

[Killed_by_Death]

24 minutes ago, Maude said:

It's nice of you to put it so politely. 😘

 

Sorry, that was uncalled for, I guess I thought if I didn't quote you directly that would be OK somehow.

I recently took a month away from the internet, because I'm an obnoxious so & so, hopefully I can reign in my inner Kwai Chang Caine to curb that habit:

 

[Hellzero]

Great ! Now I have two answers after reading all the comments. I'll be a bit harsh, but this is the plain truth.

1. Almost all posters can't read : I wrote that the tone comes from the wood, not the species of wood, as the only fixed and identical parameters are everything but the wood. And I never spoke of tonewood.

2. Almost all posters have hearing damages or problems as there's a huge difference between the 4 basses involved even if the player is Machine Gun Joe he is consistent enough to hear that it's obvious that all basses sound different, even in slap (and I do hate slap as I wrote too). And it comes from the wood, which, here, is the only variable.

I feel a bit sorry as I was expecting more from this than the usual comments.

I also never wrote that I could predict the tone from the wood as there are, as many said, too many variables in the wood itself, but it derailed immediately in that direction.

That's why you have to try a bass or any instrument to know if it suits your tastes, whatever electronics it has or whatever wood is used even if the wood matters a lot as proven in the video !

Take care BC'ers.

[Killed_by_Death]

8 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

I wrote that the tone comes from the wood

It comes from the pickup coils, the wood just attenuates certain tones from the timbre.

 

[Munurmunuh]

13 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

proven

Lol

[Killed_by_Death]

 

What bothers me about these sorts of discussions is that I feel like 80% of the Public haven't taken a Physics class, or they just were not paying attention.

 

[Vin Venal]

Pickup position is probably even more of a factor than the pickups themselves.

All this stuff could be answered pretty definitively, if a bunch of people were prepared to invest enough time and money in it.

As a starting point though, you'd need to build a number of guitars from a material which is much more consistent than wood, and ideally one which you could alter the stiffness of. Some kind of plastic or resin probably.

And you'd need to install the same electronics (not just the same model, the actual same loom) in each guitar. 

[AxelF]

23 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

Great ! Now I have two answers after reading all the comments. I'll be a bit harsh, but this is the plain truth.

1. Almost all posters can't read : I wrote that the tone comes from the wood, not the species of wood, as the only fixed and identical parameters are everything but the wood. And I never spoke of tonewood.

2. Almost all posters have hearing damages or problems as there's a huge difference between the 4 basses involved even if the player is Machine Gun Joe he is consistent enough to hear that it's obvious that all basses sound different, even in slap (and I do hate slap as I wrote too). And it comes from the wood, which, here, is the only variable.

I feel a bit sorry as I was expecting more from this than the usual comments.

I also never wrote that I could predict the tone from the wood as there are, as many said, too many variables in the wood itself, but it derailed immediately in that direction.

That's why you have to try a bass or any instrument to know if it suits your tastes, whatever electronics it has or whatever wood is used even if the wood matters a lot as proven in the video !

Take care BC'ers.

Step 1) Pick a highly contentious topic that has been done to death already, and with vast swathes of people heavily entrenched on opposite sides.

Step 2) Give the thread a suitably condescending title, suggesting that anyone who disagrees with your position is a moronic fraud.

Step 3) Throw a hissy fit when when not everyone immediately sees the error of their ways and dares to continue to disagree with you.

Step 4) Suggest that most people are disabled and lack your skill and nuance in relation to a field that everyone here is extraordinarily passionate about, again because they dare to disagree with you.

Step 5) Who knows, is there a point to all this? Can we please put this thread out of its misery?

[AndyTravis]

15 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

 

What bothers me about these sorts of discussions is that I feel like 80% of the Public haven't taken a Physics class, or they just were not paying attention.

 

What bothers me about these sorts of comments is the attempt to invalidate others experience and knowledge...

It really doesn’t matter at all. At all.

I’ve never once bought a Bass because of the wood it was made from, ever.

If it plays well, weight is good...and sounds right for what I want at the time, there we go.

I don’t really understand what these threads are for - “SEE I TOLD YOU THAT YOU WERE WRONG!”

Slow clap.

not specifically aimed at @Killed_by_Death or the OP.

And then people do posts like mine and @AxelF‘s and it gets locked, or lost.

Give it 3 months it will happen again.

[Killed_by_Death]

1 minute ago, AndyTravis said:

What bothers me about these sorts of comments is the attempt to invalidate others experience and knowledge...

Most of time it's not direct experience, it's "I read" or "I heard".

If it was truly experience that would back up the laws of Physics.

So much for being less obnoxious, but I am admittedly a work in progress & that's honest how I 'feel' about it.

 

[AndyTravis]

3 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

Most of time it's not direct experience, it's "I read" or "I heard".

If it was truly experience that would back up the laws of Physics.

So much for being less obnoxious, but I am admittedly a work in progress & that's honest how I 'feel' about it.

 

Well in my case it’s direct experience - I’m allowed to disagree; I’m allowed my opinion.

I used to sit and test shipments of basses, we used to get 6-10 of the same bass delivered to us to send out to shops - I used to set them up and send any back with flaws/damage.

This could be 50-100 instruments at a time.

I did that for 12 years, 40-50 hours a week.

Did it with guitars too.

I do have a clue. 
 

I’m not entering into a disagreement with you - merely offering another viewpoint.

[Killed_by_Death]

 

Have you even read back what I've posted thus far?

It seems like we agree, to me, but you want to pretend like I'm pointing a finger specifically at you.

 

[TrevorR]

55 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

It comes from the pickup coils, the wood just attenuates certain tones from the timbre.

 

This is a logical fallacy though, isn’t it? The statement implies (or seems to from reading and rereading it) that only additive “resonances” would make a difference to the tone/sound/frequency spectrum coming out of the instrument output. EQ can be subtractive as well as additive, after all. 
 

If, for simplicity’s sake to demonstrate the point, a body material attenuated all frequencies below 200hz that bass would sound thin. If another body material attenuated all frequencies above 500hz then that bass would sound woolly in comparison to a (theoretical) perfectly non-resonant body.  Those subtractive resonances change the tone coming out of the instrument (the instrument being taken to comprise all construction materials, the construction itself, the hardware, the pickups and the wiring).

Edited April 15, 2021 by TrevorR

[AndyTravis]

7 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

 

Have you even read back what I've posted thus far?

It seems like we agree, to me, but you want to pretend like I'm pointing a finger specifically at you.

 

In all honesty no, I haven’t - I’ve skim read; but this thread is on it’s thousandth iteration so it’s more guesswork/estimation.

No pretence at all - and if you were pointing a finger at me; I’d not worry. 

If we agree - I apologise for misreading your tone.
 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by AndyTravis

[Killed_by_Death]

4 minutes ago, TrevorR said:

subtractive resonances change the tone

Agreed, it's subtractive BEFORE it gets to the pickup coils, because the vibration of the instrument affects how the string vibrates & thus affects the output at the coils.

I'm just trying to bust this myth that wood imparts tones, it's the opposite.

 

3 minutes ago, AndyTravis said:

If we agree - I apologise for misreading your tone.

Me too, I was little blunt, but having read your comments on the previous pages I see that your experience backs up the same Physics I'm talking about.

My experiences are the same, a good stiff neck can make a 'meh' bass become a fabulous bass, if the old neck was a flimsy dud.

 

[Killed_by_Death]

 

Just realized it's 01:00 in the U.K., I guess it's a good thing the forum slows down this late, so I can get back to enjoy prime-time television.

Maybe tomorrow I can roll out the 'new less obnoxious me'.

 

[drTStingray]

1 hour ago, Killed_by_Death said:

It comes from the pickup coils, the wood just attenuates certain tones from the timbre.

 

And there was me thinking it came out of the speaker cabinet (or iPhone or headphones - or studio grade whatever gizmo) 😬👍

However what is definitely the case here is the fast section of high register notes sound vastly different between certain of those basses (notably the rosewood/ maple and paduak/paduak are more defined and fuller sounding).

I have concluded over the years that many bass players seem to make fundamentally incorrect assumptions on bass sounds - not sure why - here are a few pointers:-

1) It'll all sound the same in a band mix - WRONG - ever listened to Andy Fraser's sound in Free - the BBC sessions show some remarkable bass sound through an Orange amp and cab and a Gibson EB3.

The only time it'll likely all sound the same is when it's mixed a la mid 1960s - when you couldn't hear the bass properly anyway unless it had a clicky pick tone. Listen to any rock band mix from the late 60s early 70s and yes you can hear the bass and it does sound different dependent on who's playing and what they're playing. 

2) As if to reinforce 1) above I sat in my car earlier today eating a takeaway and with the radio on - modern chart music - mostly dance orientated type of thing - I was astonished that every song had prominent bass AND completely different bass playing style and sound - granted a couple were obviously keyboard but not all were - perhaps the music industry has woken up and rediscovered the usefulness of a decent prominent bass sound (that's not all sub rubbish)? 

I'm confident the wood in the construction can have  quite a significant impact on overall tone/timbre.

I know Fender have never used piezo pick ups on their solid bodied instruments but they do exist - many other manufacturers have and the sound from these is more reliant on overall resonance than say a magnetic pick up. 

The current fad for many people to play Jazz or Precision derived instruments (the latter notable generally only for a couple of distinct albeit iconic tones) might contribute to some rather narrow views on any subject to do with bass tone and how it's derived? It's as if many people's minds are closed to the vast variation in bass tone and style (and instrument types recorded on) over the last 50 years or so!!  

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by drTStingray

[Killed_by_Death]

 

5 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

radio on - modern chart music - mostly dance orientated type of thing

I'm sorry, were you not able to turn the dial?

😀

[ubit]

9 hours ago, Killed_by_Death said:

 

The tones in the timbre aren't coming from the wood, they're coming from the coils in the pickups.

The wood just shapes which tones are attenuated. I repeat wood does not & cannot ADD anything, the components in a passive system are subtractive, except for the actual pickups.

(even the pickups can have a scooped sound if they're designed that way)

 

I agree. I have built a P bass from cheap bits from Ebay. I fitted Seymour Duncan pick ups and it sounds fantastic.Easily as good as my Fenders.

[Downunderwonder]

4 hours ago, Killed_by_Death said:

I'm just trying to bust this myth that wood imparts tones, it's the opposite.

This sounds identical to the back and forth I got into about daylight saving time with a chap who later copped to Asperger's.

It doesn't matter if the tone is imparted by addition or subtraction. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Downunderwonder

[Geek99]

I’m unfollowing - btw @Killed_by_Death I don’t fit into your “most” criteria back there and I don’t think this topic should rear it’s head again. Not for the next ten minutes at least 

[ubit]

Well this thread seems to have taken on a different tone all by itself never mind what wood it's made of.

[Geek99]

37 minutes ago, ubit said:

Well this thread seems to have taken on a different tone all by itself never mind what wood it's made of.

But Does the tone come from entrenched positions, or is it the metal in the devices that show us the comments?

[uk_lefty]

10 hours ago, Crawford13 said:

It's always a fun read when this topic comes up. I just wish I had the time to do the research in order to be as passionate as people are defending their respective camps. 

The logic in my head tells me tone is the sum of all parts from player technique to every componet. 

Then experience also kicks in and tells me it doesn't matter how good an instrument is or what it's made of, if the player is rubbish, the tone in rubbish. 

I can prove this by sitting behind any drum kit, no matter how good the kit is it's going to sound terrible... 

Love it. My feelings exactly. 

[TrevorR]

2 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

It doesn't matter if the tone is imparted by addition or subtraction. 

My thoughts as well. It seems to more of a semantic point than anything around a definition of the word “impart”.

Thinking through the potential physics at play I don’t necessarily buy the “the body wood can only subtract frequencies” premise either. The strings will transmit vibrations into the body at the nut and bridge. These will rattle and reflect around the body/neck materials in all sorts of random ways at different frequencies. Some will be, of course, absorbed and dampened (at different frequencies and different amounts) reducing the overall energy of the system. However, it’s just as plausible that at some frequencies interference patterns or even standing wave vibrations could be formed within the body increasing the amplitude of those frequencies at the expense of others. 
 

The vibrations in the body would then transmit back into the strings at two points (nut and bridge) creating more complex overtones in the string. However, again since these would enter the strings at both ends it seems plausible that interference patterns could be formed at certain points along the string, potentially enhancing some harmonics while dampening others. If positive nodes coincide with the sensing area of the pickups - given the short wavelengths of many of the harmonics of the fundamental that also seems likely - within the complex waveform of the vibrating string there are likely to be positive and negative nodes at different micro-frequencies with some, therefore enhanced and others diminished, without breaking the law of the conservation of energy.

But as others have said, a bass sounds good if a bass sounds good and it’s core tone is a sum of the various parts (including player and playing style). It’s not simply attributable to one single factor and the organic nature of wood and potential variation in physical properties within one species - or even one tree/plank/piece of wood - means the effects on sound aren’t reliably predictable purely on the basis of species name (the usual contention at the heart of most online tone wood debates).

Edited April 16, 2021 by TrevorR