The heretic thread approved by Roger Sadowsky or For those who pretend tone doesn't come from wood...

[Stub Mandrel]

On 02/10/2021 at 12:11, Earbrass said:

From someone just interested in the sound obtained, rather than in trying to sell their "tonewood" products

 

 

 

"Have you ever heard a guitarist say he changed the tubes on his amplifier annd it made it sound worse?"

 

Spot on.

[Hellzero]

47 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

"Have you ever heard a guitarist say he changed the tubes on his amplifier annd it made it sound worse?"

Yes, and a lot of them. They are not all totally deaf...

 

That said, it's and, not annd. 

[Downunderwonder]

7 hours ago, Belka said:

Most builders say that a top has little to no effect on tone

Do those same builders wax lyrical on the tone of paint finishes?

[Downunderwonder]

7 hours ago, Belka said:

Most builders say that a top has little to no effect on tone

Do those same builders wax lyrical on the tone of paint finishes?

[Downunderwonder]

7 hours ago, Belka said:

Most builders say that a top has little to no effect on tone

Do those same builders wax lyrical on the tone of paint finishes?

[Belka]

18 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

Do those same builders wax lyrical on the tone of paint finishes?

As far as I'm aware, no. Why do you ask? 

[Dan Dare]

A lot of people do swear that thin nitrocellulose or oil finishes are better for "tone" in solid instruments. They are claimed to allow the wood to vibrate and "breathe". It is certainly true of acoustic instruments, but not for solids.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Dan Dare

[rmorris]

On 01/10/2021 at 19:55, SumOne said:

 

That is probably true, but there is the 'money to make money' thing in that a cheap Bass is probably going to lose it's value pretty quickly whereas a rare and expensive Bass' will probably get more rare and valuable over time. Also, even if the cheap Bass does sound the same to the audience it's the player that has to spend 1000s of hours with it and have it up on their wall at home, so they might as well get something that's more comfortable/enjoyable/easier to play and looks better - and sounds better for them (and the 0.05% audience) and holds it's value better if they can afford it - why make a hobby more mundane and 'it'll do' than it has to be?!.....These are the things I'm telling myself as I look through expensive Bass adverts anyway! 

 

I think that's basically the point. The difference in feel and playability to the bassist can make a huge difference to the performance. As can many other factors like monitors etc.

Audience will not generally ascribe this to s particular instrument.

When did you last go to a gig and think that the bassist should be using a slightly lighter/ heavier gauge of string ? Or neck profile ? But it will feel different to the player and influence the performance.

Emphasises that setup can be more important than the bass itself.

Obvs there are limits - Don't try and 'do' Mark King or Peter Hook on a Precision set up with flats and a high action a la Jamerson 😳

[4000]

“Does/will the audience notice?” is the worst possible justification for any creative or artistic choice. 

[Al Krow]

18 minutes ago, 4000 said:

“Does/will the audience notice?” is the worst possible justification for any creative or artistic choice. 

 

Really? I suspect most live artists care deeply about what their audiences think.

 

Given that none of us has unlimited time, I'd certainly recommend focusing first on aspects of a band's live act that has a bigger impact vs spending time on stuff that's not going to make much of a difference to our audiences eg playing technique, choice of great set material or something as basic, but important, to an audience experience such as band lighting, as a priority over tiny nuances of bass tone. 

[tegs07]

On 02/10/2021 at 12:11, Earbrass said:

From someone just interested in the sound obtained, rather than in trying to sell their "tonewood" products

 

 

Interesting thanks. For me it sort of confirmed my thoughts that there are marginal differences with a very clean isolated instrument but nothing that can be differentiated once effects are used or in the mix.

[4000]

17 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Really? I suspect most live artists care deeply about what their audiences think.

 

Given that none of us has unlimited time, I'd certainly recommend focusing first on aspects of a band's live act that has a bigger impact vs spending time on stuff that's not going to make much of a difference to our audiences eg playing technique, choice of great set material or something as basic, but important, to an audience experience such as band lighting, as a priority over tiny nuances of bass tone. 

Any artist who puts their audiences’ utterly random and disagreeing priorities above their own is potentially in for a world of pain. As the saying goes, you can’t please all the people all the time.
 

And “tiny nuances of bass tone” - or any other tone for that matter - can make a big difference to how something is executed and/or perceived. If someone out front, who may not be able to even tell one instrument from another (something that I’ve come across frequently) is the basis for your judgements then I don’t know what to say, only that your priorities are very different than mine. 
 

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by 4000

[mybass]

I’ll come back in on this conversation with this……many years ago when I played for Marshall Amplification at the giant Frankfurt Music show, I happened across Mike Tobias’s stand. As a budding luthier myself, I was very keen to chat with one of America’s top bass builders at that time, ( the great bassist Jimmy Haslip, the upside down left hand six string player from the Yellowjackets used Tobias basses). Mike brought a bass out for me to try as we were discussing different woods but that bass wasn’t the sound I looked for so he brought another two or three basses out but the last bass was ‘the’ sound that pleased me most. It had a main ash body, with a cap of walnut I think. I had started building using ash already, liking the sound very much for my style of fretless finger playing. Yes, wood does make a difference, though not the huge amounts we may imagine by reading descriptions like..’provides punch and clarity…cuts through the mix’ etc etc. a lot of this is done by fingers or pick style and aggression, strings, amplification. I am happy to say that both audience and bass players attending my gigs always say they hear my bass notes really clearly and mixed in well with whichever band I’m with, then go on to complain that most of the time with other bands, the bass is very woolly! 

[BigRedX]

As a band member and composer the audience reaction to our performance and our songs is very important to me. Whether anyone thinks I have a "killer bass tone" less so. 

 

I personally think that I have the right bass sounds for all my band's various songs, but playing the right notes is more important. 

 

My choice of instruments is down to band image and playability above all else.

 

TBH if a non-musician notices the bass tone then there is probably something wrong with the mix.

[4000]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

As a band member and composer the audience reaction to our performance and our songs is very important to me. Whether anyone thinks I have a "killer bass tone" less so. 

 

I personally think that I have the right bass sounds for all my band's various songs, but playing the right notes is more important. 

 

My choice of instruments is down to band image and playability above all else.

 

TBH if a non-musician notices the bass tone then there is probably something wrong with the mix.

Tell that to Chris Squire, Lemmy, JJB etc. 😉

 

Also as a songwriter and composer, an audience reaction is far less important to me than making sure I’m doing things how I want to do them. I don’t write or play for the audience, I write and play for me. If the audience likes it - which they generally seem to - that’s a bonus. If not, it doesn’t really bother me. And more to the point, I’m certainly not going to change what I do on their account. I write and play for the same reasons I paint, to fulfil a creative urge. A potential audience is utterly secondary. Of course your motivations may be different. But my point applies to recording too, not just live. At what point do you start tailoring your writing and recording to your audience? I’ve never considered that in 40 years of playing. 

 

With regards to the “bass is a bass” thing, as a portrait painter, if I’m painting a portrait of someone I want it to capture them. It just looking “like a person” is not the aim.😉

Edited November 17, 2021 by 4000

[ped]

A lot of people like Marcus Miller but don’t know or care that the signature sound is down to the pickup location on his bass (as well as his chops of course)

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, 4000 said:

Tell that to Chris Squire, Lemmy, JJB etc. 😉

 

Also as a songwriter and composer, an audience reaction is far less important to me than making sure I’m doing things how I want to do them. I don’t write or play for the audience, I write and play for me. If the audience likes it - which they generally seem to - that’s a bonus. If not, it doesn’t really bother me. And more to the point, I’m certainly not going to change what I do on their account. I write and play for the same reasons I paint, to fulfil a creative urge. A potential audience is utterly secondary. Of course your motivations may be different. But my point applies to recording too, not just live. At what point do you start tailoring your writing and recording to your audience? I’ve never considered that in 40 years of playing. 

 

With regards to the “bass is a bass” thing, as a portrait painter, if I’m painting a portrait of someone I want it to capture them. It just looking “like a person” is not the aim.😉

 

I play and compose first and foremost for me too.

 

But there would be zero point in playing live or recording and releasing my tunes if I didn't also care what my audience will think.

[Al Krow]

4 hours ago, 4000 said:

Any artist who puts their audiences’ utterly random and disagreeing priorities above their own is potentially in for a world of pain. As the saying goes, you can’t please all the people all the time.
 

And “tiny nuances of bass tone” - or any other tone for that matter - can make a big difference to how something is executed and/or perceived. If someone out front, who may not be able to even tell one instrument from another (something that I’ve come across frequently) is the basis for your judgements then I don’t know what to say, only that your priorities are very different than mine. 

 

I think the difference in outlook is driven by what we're both seeking to do musically. I play in covers bands and we're paid by pub landlords to bring in punters off the street and keep hold of the ones already there to increase bar sales, or to help get a birthday party or wedding bash going. So, yup, what we do is completely driven by audiences' "utterly random and disagreeing priorities". We love playing together and the set lists we do and if our audiences are really enjoying themselves that makes for a great night for us. The fact we get paid (sometimes very handsomely for function gigs) for enjoying our musical passion, is icing on the cake. And because we are paid, we have to be mindful of our customers. 

 

If you're an "artist", which I certainly don't claim to be, then caring more for your art and less about what the audience thinks is much more understandable and, of course, your prerogative. 

[4000]

3 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

I play and compose first and foremost for me too.

 

But there would be zero point in playing live or recording and releasing my tunes if I didn't also care what my audience will think.

I play and record mainly to fund further recordings (plus I like creating an ‘album’ in the same way I like creating songs or paintings) and to have a night out with my mates. 😉 I’d be just as happy - happier probably - rehearsing instead, if I could make money doing it. 
 

The point of creating something is simply to create something, for me at least. I’ll also put it out there in case someone else happens to like it, but they don’t factor into the creative process in any way shape or form. I’ve never tweaked a song or recording because I think someone else may prefer it, that would be utterly pointless from an artistic perspective.

Edited November 17, 2021 by 4000

[4000]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

I think the difference in outlook is driven by what we're both seeking to do musically. I play in covers bands and we're paid by pub landlords to bring in punters off the street and keep hold of the ones already there to increase bar sales, or to help get a birthday party or wedding bash going. So, yup, what we do is completely driven by audiences' "utterly random and disagreeing priorities". We love playing together and the set lists we do and if our audiences are really enjoying themselves that makes for a great night for us. The fact we get paid (sometimes very handsomely for function gigs) for enjoying our musical passion, is icing on the cake. And because we are paid, we have to be mindful of our customers. 

 

If you're an "artist", which I certainly don't claim to be, then caring more for your art and less about what the audience thinks is much more understandable and, of course, your prerogative. 

It’s kind of a given that what I was saying wouldn’t apply to cover bands because they’re not creating something in the same way an artist is; it’s a completely different thing IMO. Obviously playing covers is mainly about pleasing the audience . Although I’ve played the odd cover in the past 40 years I’ve never been in a cover band (and have never wanted to be), have always written and played original material. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by 4000

[chris_b]

My sound is for me, my playing is for me and the band and the sound of the band is for the audience. There are overlaps but don't read too much into this. It doesn't mater to an audience what the individual musicians sound like as long as they play together well, the band sounds good and the songs work. 

[LeftyP]

As a "mature" player with a bad back I'm looking for a bass made of balsa wood!

 

[Bassfinger]

The original expereiment is so riddled with errors of scientific methodology, that the only conclusion it is safe to draw from the whole exercise is that Sadowsky did not pass GCSE general science.

[Stub Mandrel]

18 hours ago, 4000 said:

I’ve never tweaked a song or recording because I think someone else may prefer it, that would be utterly pointless from an artistic perspective.

 

That's why most hugely successful bands have producers like George Martin, Rick Rubin, Phil Spector and Pete Waterman to do the tweaking 🙂

[RhysP]

23 hours ago, 4000 said:

I write and play for the same reasons I paint, to fulfil a creative urge.

This is my only reason for doing anything musically. 

The reason why I stopped gigging was that I got absolutely nothing out of it. I'm not an "entertainer" by nature & have absolutely no desire to be one.

I'm at my happiest when I'm just working on my own in my little music room seeing what I come up with.

I enjoy the process far more than the end product.