The heretic thread approved by Roger Sadowsky or For those who pretend tone doesn't come from wood...

[Baloney Balderdash]

1 hour ago, Muzz said:

Resonance in a material in identical contruction (and we assume a bass fretboard will be the same length under the same forces) is affected by density.

Density affects resonance, yes.

 

It is however not the only determining factor for resonance, not least stiffness is very important, but there are others as well, such as texture/structure. 

 

Edited July 5, 2024 by Baloney Balderdash

[neepheid]

2 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

It is however not the only determining factor for resonance, not least stiffness is very important, but there are others as well, such as texture/structure. 

 

 

Are we still taking about musical instruments?

[Baloney Balderdash]

51 minutes ago, neepheid said:

 

Are we still taking about musical instruments?

Well, we were talking about wood properties and the nature of resonance in specific here.

 

That however does very much relate to the general debate in this thread, and indirectly to basses and guitars in general as well.

 

But if you are looking for a simple answer I guess that sums up to a: Yes!

 

Edited July 5, 2024 by Baloney Balderdash

[tauzero]

1 hour ago, neepheid said:

 

You could just point out the amount of human time put into the build.  Everyone knows time is money, and that's a cold hard fact you can take to the bank instead of all this florid prose and subjective points of view being paraded as fact.

 

Don't forget the amount of human time put into making the videos to try and convince you that the wood makes a difference.

[peteb]

I will just leave this here: 

 

 

[Dad3353]

Well, this bloke ^^ has done an amazing job of not convincing me, sorry. 

[peteb]

4 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Well, this bloke ^^ has done an amazing job of not convincing me, sorry. 

 

And you can't get a higher seal of approval than that... 

 

[Doctor J]

All he seems to suggest is structural rigidity and non-absorbent coatings are the crucial factors in not inhibiting string vibration, not specific wood X gives you tonal property Y. An unpainted carbon instrument should outperform wood then, no? Or metal? Etc etc

[Doctor J]

And the next suggestion from youtube is... 🤣
 

 

The clickbait is strong in this one. I assume they're trying to drag people onto their channel.

[peteb]

4 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

The clickbait is strong in this one. I assume they're trying to drag people onto their channel.

 

Absolutely, although on the tonewood does not matter video he is basically saying the same thing with a different slant. On both videos he says that wood does make a difference, but it doesn't matter how rare / exotic / expensive the wood is, as long as it is stiff enough and resonates well. 

 

[Doctor J]

He should fight Roger Sadowsky inside an oversized novelty Ampeg cab.

[paul_5]

2 hours ago, Doctor J said:

He should fight Roger Sadowsky inside an oversized novelty inflatable Ampeg cab.

fixed

[Baloney Balderdash]

7 hours ago, peteb said:

I will just leave this here: 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Doctor J said:

And the next suggestion from youtube is... 🤣
 

 

The clickbait is strong in this one. I assume they're trying to drag people onto their channel.

Idiot! 

 

!!!Me Playing THE DEVIL's Advocate!!!

 

!!!Me Playing THE DEVIL's Advocate But With THE OPPOSITE Opinion!!!

 

 

Edited July 17, 2024 by Baloney Balderdash

[Kiwi]

8 hours ago, peteb said:

 

Absolutely, although on the tonewood does not matter video he is basically saying the same thing with a different slant. On both videos he says that wood does make a difference, but it doesn't matter how rare / exotic / expensive the wood is, as long as it is stiff enough and resonates well. 

 

FWIW Paul Reed Smith says pretty much the same thing in a YT video. And Rob Green also 15 or so years ago when I dropped by his workshop.  So there's consensus between three individuals who own brands associated with high quality instruments.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, peteb said:

 

Absolutely, although on the tonewood does not matter video he is basically saying the same thing with a different slant. On both videos he says that wood does make a difference, but it doesn't matter how rare / exotic / expensive the wood is, as long as it is stiff enough and resonates well. 

 

 

But pickups detect vibration of the strings, not the wood 'resonating'. In fact the wood transmits vibrations, it almost never actually resonates.

 

How the strings vibrate is purely a function of the rigidity of the structure across which they are stretched. Theoretically a bass made from granite or depleted uranium would sound exactly the same as one made from mahogany, provided the design of each matches the rigidity of the wooden one.

 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2024 by Bassfinger

[rwillett]

As I'm in a provocative mood this morning, though to be fair that's my normal mood, I'm happy to lend my 3d printer six string with a plywood backbone, my Fender MIM necked 3d printed Jazz type bass with an aluminium backbone & my soon to be finished V2 headless bass with an aluminium backbone for testing out this theory. 

 

The body's of all these six and four strings are all 3d printed. 15mm plywood is simply not strong enough for a bass guitar unless you basically use it for the whole body. 

 

It's pretty simple to put whatever pickups you like in them, though I don't many at all. 

 

Electrics on the six string are from Home of Tone, the jazz electrics are from Kliogon (top man) and the headless bass are from me and I have to solder them up.

 

Apart from 15mm plywood on the back of the six string, no wood at all. They sound great to me but I'm no expert. The bloke in the shop who helped me set the six string up loved it. He plugged it into a large Marshall stack and beat the hell out of the guitar (in a good way) and smiled a lot. 

 

The offer is there. 

 

Rob

 

 

[rwillett]

Conversely send your stuff to me to compare. A 59 Strat or 59 Les Paul or 56 Precision most welcome 

[Hellzero]

What about a 54 Strat, it's all I have, sorry...

[rwillett]

I wouldn't normally take a 54 Strat but just so we can progress this discussion, I am happy to take it for comparison purposes. 

 

 

[rwillett]

I also would suggest a few decent amps to ensure that we are getting the very best out of these beasts. Perhaps an old 57 Bassman or Dumble would be good.

 

I think I'm actually the right person to do this comparison as I'm not a very good musician. This means I can't hide any quality issues between the instruments and amps. A good musician would get around the differences whereas I can't.  This makes sense to me. 

 

Thanks

 

Rob

[tauzero]

It puzzled me for a minute when he said that the two sides of the string are travelling in opposite directions, until I realised that what he meant was that as the string moved from side to side (or up & down), with both sides of it travelling the same way, the leading side of it was causing compression and the trailing side of it was causing rarefaction. So they're travelling in the same direction but with opposite effect.

[Baloney Balderdash]

4 hours ago, Bassfinger said:

 

But pickups detect vibration of the strings, not the wood 'resonating'. In fact the wood transmits vibrations, it almost never actually resonates.

 

How the strings vibrate is purely a function of the rigidity of the structure across which they are stretched. Theoretically a bass made from granite or depleted uranium would sound exactly the same as one made from mahogany, provided the design of each matches the rigidity of the wooden one.

 

 

 

Except that is not how resonance works.

 

It goes both ways.

 

The specific way the string's vibrations makes the wood resonates reflects back and affects how the strings vibrate accordingly as well.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2024 by Baloney Balderdash

[Dad3353]

Magnetic pick-ups don't react to sound at all, only to changes in the magnetic field around them (the vibration of a steel string, mostly...). That's why single-coils pick up hum, from external magnetic fields such as unsuppressed lighting systems. One cannot 'hear' this hum, as it's not phonic, only magnetic. The 'tonewood' does not react to this hum, either, nor to an E-bow. Pick-ups don't react to acoustic phenomena. 

[Baloney Balderdash]

4 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Magnetic pick-ups don't react to sound at all, only to changes in the magnetic field around them (the vibration of a steel string, mostly...). That's why single-coils pick up hum, from external magnetic fields such as unsuppressed lighting systems. One cannot 'hear' this hum, as it's not phonic, only magnetic. The 'tonewood' does not react to this hum, either, nor to an E-bow. Pick-ups don't react to acoustic phenomena. 

But the pickups do pick up the vibrations of the strings, right?

 

That is how we get sound.

 

Edited July 17, 2024 by Baloney Balderdash

[Dad3353]

2 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

But the pickups do pick up the vibrations of the strings, right?

 

That is how we get sound.

 

 

No, they don't pick up the acoustic vibration of the strings, only their changing flux in the magnetic field of the pole pieces.