The heretic thread approved by Roger Sadowsky or For those who pretend tone doesn't come from wood...

[Baloney Balderdash]

3 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

No, they don't pick up the acoustic vibration of the strings, only their changing flux in the magnetic field of the pole pieces. 

So the sound we get doesn't actually reflects (reflects, as in resembles, not the physical phenomena reflection) how the strings vibrate at all?

 

Edited July 17 by Baloney Balderdash

[rwillett]

Pickups can (note the word can) pickup acoustic phenomena, this is an excellent test that somebody did with hard data as opposed to somebody listening and interpreting things. I thought that wax potting was to avoid the microphonic issues with earlier pickups.

 

https://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/8521/testing-microphonics-potted-paf-clone

 

Now if shouting into the pickups can make them vibrate enough to cause magnetic variations that are then passed on, then that indicates that acoustic phenomena can impact the pickup. Its making the poles (or wiring) vibrate and therefore generating a current.

 

Rob

[Dad3353]

13 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

So the sound we get doesn't actually reflects (reflects, as in resembles, not the physical phenomena reflection) how the strings vibrate at all?

 

The sound reflects the way the string induces changes in the magnetic field around the pick-up. There is very little (small enough to be insignificant...) acoustic input to these changes in magnetic flux. 

 

13 minutes ago, rwillett said:

Pickups can (note the word can) pickup acoustic phenomena, this is an excellent test that somebody did with hard data as opposed to somebody listening and interpreting things. I thought that wax potting was to avoid the microphonic issues with earlier pickups.

 

https://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/8521/testing-microphonics-potted-paf-clone

 

Now if shouting into the pickups can make them vibrate enough to cause magnetic variations that are then passed on, then that indicates that acoustic phenomena can impact the pickup. Its making the poles (or wiring) vibrate and therefore generating a current.

 

One has to shout pretty loud, and with high gain, to pick up any microphonic sound from an electric guitar. Far louder than would be any acoustic vibration of a wooden guitar body. If the strings are removed, even that sound is no longer picked up. 

[Belka]

27 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Magnetic pick-ups don't react to sound at all, only to changes in the magnetic field around them (the vibration of a steel string, mostly...). That's why single-coils pick up hum, from external magnetic fields such as unsuppressed lighting systems. One cannot 'hear' this hum, as it's not phonic, only magnetic. The 'tonewood' does not react to this hum, either, nor to an E-bow. Pick-ups don't react to acoustic phenomena. 

If that's the case, why do old strings sound deader than new ones, both acoustically and amplified? 

[Dad3353]

3 minutes ago, Belka said:

If that's the case, why do old strings sound deader than new ones, both acoustically and amplified? 

 

Their vibration is dampened, by 'crud' in the windings, or metal fatigue. Not all strings have this happen to them; flat-wounds last considerably longer, and my nylon-tape-wound strings sound 'dead' from new, so... 

Edited July 17 by Dad3353

[Baloney Balderdash]

10 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

The sound reflects the way the string induces changes in the magnetic field around the pick-up. There is very little (small enough to be insignificant...) acoustic input to these changes in magnetic flux. 

 

 

One has to shout pretty loud, and with high gain, to pick up any microphonic sound from an electric guitar. Far louder than would be any acoustic vibration of a wooden guitar body. If the strings are removed, even that sound is no longer picked up. 

 

6 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

Their vibration is dampened, by 'crud' in the windings, or metal fatigue. Not all strings have this happen to them; flat-wounds last considerably longer, and my nylon-tape-wound strings sound 'dead' from new, so... 

 

And what exactly is your actual point with this, in relation to what is actually discussed? :

 

 

47 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Except that is not how resonance works.

 

It goes both ways.

 

The specific way the string's vibrations makes the wood resonates reflects back and affects how the strings vibrate accordingly as well.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 17 by Baloney Balderdash

[Dad3353]

Just now, Baloney Balderdash said:

This recent "discussion" was a reply to the post of mine I quote above, wasn't it?

 

Does a guitar/bass body resonate differently when played in free air, as opposed to being strapped to the player..? What effect, if any, does the close proximity of the player have on any resonance..? Does the instrument sound different when played on a stand, or hung up in a shop, compared to on stage..? I would suggest that any acoustic effect of an electric instrument is so negligeable as to be beyond 'normal' human hearing. It may (note the 'may'...) be possible, in laboratory conditions, to detect something, but even admitting this, I don't think that this has any effect in a band, or recording, context, and is therefore a discussion for discussion's sake. Why not; it's of academic interest, but of little (read 'no'...) real-world value. 

Disclaimer : I'm a drummer, so... 

[Hellzero]

4 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

Disclaimer : I'm a drummer, so... 

... almost deaf. 🫣😉🤣

[Dad3353]

Just now, Hellzero said:

... almost deaf. 🫣😉🤣

 

No 'almost' about it..! 

[Dan Dare]

Is this old chestnut still grinding on?

 

Re. the exchange above, it's interesting (and relevant, I suggest) that Dad has an engineering background. I don't think those disputing with him above do.

[peteb]

19 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

Re. the exchange above, it's interesting (and relevant, I suggest) that Dad has an engineering background. I don't think those disputing with him above do.

 

But he is also somewhat of a contrarian (to put it mildly)! I believe that Alex from Barefaced also has an engineering background (in addition to very successfully building high-end, high-tech musical equipment beloved by many on this forum), but Dad is quick to dismiss his views. 

 

[Hellzero]

Simple question: How many of those believing that tonewood is totally irrelevant believe in any god?

[rmorris]

21 hours ago, Belka said:

If that's the case, why do old strings sound deader than new ones, both acoustically and amplified? 

 

The vibrational characteristic changes over time. Due to both a) build up of 'crud' esp between windings on a round wound string. Hence cleaning techniques can restore a brighter sound.

b) strings 'age' and lose their 'true' response eg it becomes impossible to intimate them reasonably.

These changes are reflected in the magnetic field.

[Dad3353]

[Muzz]

Taking aside the Occam's Razor of motivation behind many of the internet declarations of the overimportance of tonewood (see my earlier posts), it boils down to one thing: empirical vs non-empirical experience.

 

Those of us who very much doubt the importance of tonewood are coming from an empirical stance (a bit like the hilariously mentioned 'it's basic physics' earlier) and stating the many, many factors affecting the sound of an instrument (most of which I'm just not bothering to list any more, but an honorable mention to Dad's statement above, which I'm going to reduce to 'How is the resonance/tone of an instrument affected by the dulling effect of being strapped to 15st of squidgy bassist?') meaning that the lovely statements given by high end luthiers for their tonewood are at best marketing flimflam.

 

I have never said tonewood has absolutely no effect on an electric instrument, what I am saying is it is bordering on the negligible compared to many other factors (again, I'm not bothering to list them, it's been done too many times).

 

If any of the proponents of the overimportance tonewood would care to engage with any actual evidence (you know, facts, figures, repeatable experimentation results... aka 'basic physics') other than the non-empirical, which I know people feel to be self-evident, but involves confirmation bias, inherited opinion and shaky reasoning, I'm all ears. Until then, you do you and I'll do me...

 

 

Edited July 18 by Muzz

[diskwave]

I'll take technique and experience over just about any tech/materials, all day long. For eg, when I started playing P basses 45 years ago I couldnt get them to work at all... mushy, boomy, indestinct..I couldn't make it work. I play a VM P bass now with its stock PU and I can make it punch and grind like crazy. Technique/experience.

[Muzz]

Oh, and just to illustrate the flimflam, here's some descriptions from Alembic, pretty much the top of the shop of tonewood purveyors:

 

'shimmer'

'focused'

'mellow'

'beefy'

'plump'

'burly'

'both bright and dark'

'distinct'

 

The Milton Model of advertising, right there, and not a fact to be seen.

[tegs07]

Worth repeating. Tonewood = generic term used by luthiers to make instruments. It covers a vast variety of woods both cheap and expensive.

 

[Doctor J]

A couple of samples from Alembic's website. Clear as mud 😁

 

 

[Muzz]

Well at least they go for 'not a huge factor'... 🙂

[tegs07]

2 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

A couple of samples from Alembic's website. Clear as mud 😁

 

 

certain luthiers maintain that there is a difference between maple, ebony and rosewood necks. Believe what you want. There is not a great deal of difference in the price between the 3 options. The major cost is in the woods used in the body and this is largely aesthetics rather than adding anything to the “tone”.

 

Of course there is marketing flim flam. They are selling a product.

[Muzz]

5 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

Worth repeating. Tonewood = generic term used by luthiers to make instruments. It covers a vast variety of woods both cheap and expensive.

 

Also worth noting that the company who sell more instruments than any other are very coy about any effects from wood; they list lots of details, but stick to the facts: pickup model, nut width, scale, etc - even their £2.6k Ltd Edition American Ultra PJ bodies are 'Alder or Ash'

 

The more strident proponents of the effects of wood on tone (what I'm assuming we're referring to here as 'tonewood') are the higher end luthiers, because, and I almost can't believe I'm saying this again, it's a distinguishing selling point for their product, true or not...and it can't be proven false, because it's a non-empirical claim.

[Muzz]

2 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

certain luthiers maintain that there is a difference between maple, ebony and rosewood necks. Believe what you want. There is not a great deal of difference in the price between the 3 options. The major cost is in the woods used in the body and this is largely aesthetics rather than adding anything to the “tone”.

 

Of course there is marketing flim flam. They are selling a product.

I'll take not believing in the flimflam...

[tegs07]

1 minute ago, Muzz said:

Also worth noting that the company who sell more instruments than any other are very coy about any effects from wood; they list lots of details, but stick to the facts: pickup model, nut width, scale, etc - even their £2.6k Ltd Edition American Ultra PJ bodies are 'Alder or Ash'

 

The more strident proponents of the effects of wood on tone (what I'm assuming we're referring to here as 'tonewood') are the higher end luthiers, because, and I almost can't believe I'm saying this again, it's a distinguishing selling point for their product, true or not...and it can't be proven false, because it's a non-empirical claim.

yet Sadowsky is talking about the neck as the biggest impact on tone, specifically rosewood, maple and ebony. if he was talking about unicorn foreskin i would be right with you on rip off. as it is all 3 options are available on far cheaper instruments.

 

[Guest]

Even If you remove the strings, as long as the pickup has physical connection (usually through the mounting screws etc) there is vibration transfer.  Don't take my word for it, remove your strings, plug in the guitar, turn up your amplifier and knock on body or neck, even tap a machine head with something metallic and all will be clear and decernible through your amplifier.

As for wax potting, that only eliminates any noise from potential loose windings/parts internal to the pickup, it has little to no effect on contact vibration.