The heretic thread approved by Roger Sadowsky or For those who pretend tone doesn't come from wood...

[BigRedX]

3 minutes ago, Tobe said:

I have two identical basses of the same year, they even weigh the same, one is physically louder than the other acoustically, plug it in and it's louder amplified too, even if i swap the pickups/electronics, the same one is still louder. 

 

Two is not a scientifically meaningful number. And how do you know they are identical.

 

The problem with wood is not that it doesn't make any difference to the sound, but that the effects of a "type" of wood are not consistently replicable from one instrument to the next. Anyone can make two supposedly identical basses that sound different. The real skill would be if they could make 50 or more basses that sound EXACTLY the same.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Muzz said:

Non-empirical again, which is what I was describing earlier. Identical? Same wood from the same bit of the same tree? Is the neck joint exactly the same in each?

Exactly my point.. wood difference has made the difference!

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

Two is not a scientifically meaningful number. And how do you know they are identical.

 

The problem with wood is not that it doesn't make any difference to the sound, but that the effects of a "type" of wood are not consistently replicable from one instrument to the next. Anyone can make two supposedly identical basses that sound different. The real skill would be if they could make 50 or more basses that sound EXACTLY the same.

That's my point.. wood has made the difference and your all agreeing now 🙂

[diskwave]

57 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

Of course there is marketing flim flam. They are selling a product

Say that over on TB and see what a to do it'll cause. 'They dont it up em Mr Mannering'..haha

[BigRedX]

1 minute ago, Tobe said:

Exactly my point.. wood difference has made the difference!

 

But can you state with 100% certainty that it is the wood, and not the pickups, or the construction, by which I mean how it has been put together. 

 

Have you checked that both pickups have exactly the same DC resistance and that they have been wound in exactly the same way? Have the neck screws been tightened with exactly the same amount of torque. If the body is made of multiple pieces of wood are the joins in exactly the same place. Are the two bodies and necks even EXACTLY the same size and shape? And that's before we consider things like strings, set up and confirmation bias on the part of the player.

[Dad3353]

6 minutes ago, Tobe said:

That's my point.. wood has made the difference and your all agreeing now 🙂

 

How does one determine, before the build, what the final sound will be..? How does one go about selecting that piece over that piece, knowing that the instrument will sound 'brighter', 'louder', 'darker' or whatever..? Tap-tuning..? Weight..? Under a microscope..? Wet finger in the air..? For a solid-bodied instrument, I'm not convinced that there's any reliable, repeatable, method. Is there a pile of wood 'rejects' out back of any of these master builder workshops..? Wood that they know, in advance, doesn't cut the mustard..? Hmm... Colour me sceptic. 

Edited July 18 by Dad3353

[Baloney Balderdash]

20 minutes ago, rwillett said:

Have we reached Godwins law yet?

No, but I did compare myself to Buddha : 

 

35 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

You have neither proved worthy nor ready to get part in my vast knowledge.

 

But begging, instead of threatening, might be a good start on the way to have part in it and achieve absolute enlightenment!

 

 

On a more serious note I am not looking for a fight, so I politely decline your challenge.

 

Better?

 

 

 

Kind of...

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

But can you state with 100% certainty that it is the wood, and not the pickups, or the construction, by which I mean how it has been put together. 

 

Have you checked that both pickups have exactly the same DC resistance and that they have been wound in exactly the same way? Have the neck screws been tightened with exactly the same amount of torque. If the body is made of multiple pieces of wood are the joins in exactly the same place. Are the two bodies and necks even EXACTLY the same size and shape? And that's before we consider things like strings, set up and confirmation bias on the part of the player.

You need to read my posts firstly and the point I'm making. 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

How does one determine, before the build, what the final sound will be..? How does one go about selecting that piece over that piece, knowing that the instrument will sound 'brighter', 'louder', 'darker' or whatever..? Tap-tuning..? Weight..? Under a microscope..? Wet finger in the air..? For a solid-bodied instrument, I'm not convinced that there's any reliable, repeatable, method. Is there a pile of wood 'rejects' out back of any of these master builder workshops..? Wood that they know, in advance, doesn't cut the mustard..? Hmm... Colour me sceptic. 

You can't really determine before the build, wood differs. My point is about wood making the difference, and because it differs it has made a difference😁 I think you can get a ballpark tho.. like with Rosewood backed acoustics predominantly having more bass and less mid, where as Mahogany has predominantly less bass and more mid for same size instruments, there is always exceptions tho simply because wood differs. 

Edited July 18 by Tobe

[tegs07]

19 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

How does one determine, before the build, what the final sound will be..? How does one go about selecting that piece over that piece, knowing that the instrument will sound 'brighter', 'louder', 'darker' or whatever..? Tap-tuning..? Weight..? Under a microscope..? Wet finger in the air..? For a solid-bodied instrument, I'm not convinced that there's any reliable, repeatable, method. Is there a pile of wood 'rejects' out back of any of these master builder workshops..? Wood that they know, in advance, doesn't cut the mustard..? Hmm... Colour me sceptic. 

i always aim for a smooth, rich, velvety texture with a even crumb structure.

 

 

 

 

doh that’s cake 

 

as you were 

[ezbass]

Without weighing in with an opinion one way of the other, with all the times that this subject arises, does anyone actually change their mind? My guessing is no. What we inevitably end up with is pantomime, “Oh, yes it does!” “Oh, no it doesn’t!” In addition, it creates some bad feeling. Maybe we should have a no politics, no religion, no tonewood ruling. 🤔

[Muzz]

39 minutes ago, Tobe said:

Exactly my point.. wood difference has made the difference!

They are two different basses. No matter how you turn the argument, you don't know that, and it's your judgement. Non-empirical, yet again.

 

We're talking here (or trying to, despite the derails) about tone coming from wood itself, not from acoustics, which you actually do refer to here: 'Rosewood...predominantly having more bass and less mid, where as Mahogany has predominantly less bass and more mid'

 

How?

 

Oh, and for reference, Alembic call Rosewood 'both bright and dark', if that helps...

 

Still waiting to hear 'huge effect in sound' in terms of electric instruments, which, again, is what we're talking about here.

[ahpook]

23 minutes ago, ezbass said:

Without weighing in with an opinion one way of the other, with all the times that this subject arises, does anyone actually change their mind? My guessing is no. What we inevitably end up with is pantomime, “Oh, yes it does!” “Oh, no it doesn’t!” In addition, it creates some bad feeling. Maybe we should have a no politics, no religion, no tonewood ruling. 🤔

 

I know exactly what you mean, but the exercise is good for them and they'll all sleep really well tonight

 

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, Muzz said:

They are two different basses. No matter how you turn the argument, you don't know that, and it's your judgement. Non-empirical, yet again.

 

We're talking here (or trying to, despite the derails) about tone coming from wood itself, not from acoustics, which you actually do refer to here: 'Rosewood...predominantly having more bass and less mid, where as Mahogany has predominantly less bass and more mid'

 

How?

 

Oh, and for reference, Alembic call Rosewood 'both bright and dark', if that helps...

 

Still waiting to hear 'huge effect in sound' in terms of electric instruments, which, again, is what we're talking about here.

So my two "Identical" basses are made in the same year by the same manufactuer, they both even weigh the same, yet one is louder than the other acoustically which translates when it is plugged in, it just resonates more, I tried swapping all hardware, strings between the two, and even pickups/electronics, and yes the bolts are all torqued the same, and the same bass is still louder than it's counterpart. The only thing that's left is the wood, what else do you suggest is making the difference in acoustic volume? 

Btw,  I'm not for marketing or stand anywhere other than that of my many years experience, But to answer your question about Alembic saying dark and bright suggests bass and treble with less mid to me, which is my real world experience of Rosewood. So I'll go for that.

Edited July 18 by Tobe

[Doctor J]

Is the difference in volume also proportionally evident when the instruments are played through an amplifier?

 

[Dad3353]

19 minutes ago, Tobe said:

So my two "Identical" basses are made in the same year by the same manufactuer, they both even weigh the same, yet one is louder than the other acoustically which translates when it is plugged in, it just resonates more, I tried swapping all hardware, strings between the two, and even pickups/electronics, and yes the bolts are all torqued the same, and the same bass is still louder than it's counterpart. The only thing that's left is the wood, what else do you suggest is making the difference in acoustic volume? 

Btw,  I'm not for marketing or stand anywhere other than that of my many years experience, But to answer your question about Alembic saying dark and bright suggests bass and treble with less mid to me, which is my real world experience of Rosewood. So I'll go for that.

 

Can you tell the difference when they're played by someone else..? Genuine question; I'm not doubting that you hear a difference (nor indeed, that the difference exists...). 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

Is the difference in volume also proportionally evident when the instruments are played through an amplifier?

 

Yes

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

Can you tell the difference when they're played by someone else..? Genuine question; I'm not doubting that you hear a difference (nor indeed, that the difference exists...). 

I've not heard them played by anyone else, but my dB meter is telling me that it's louder too.

[tauzero]

2 hours ago, Tobe said:

Even If you remove the strings, as long as the pickup has physical connection (usually through the mounting screws etc) there is vibration transfer.  Don't take my word for it, remove your strings, plug in the guitar, turn up your amplifier and knock on body or neck, even tap a machine head with something metallic and all will be clear and decernible through your amplifier.

As for wax potting, that only eliminates any noise from potential loose windings/parts internal to the pickup, it has little to no effect on contact vibration. 

 

For a valid comparison doing this, record a bass at full volume with standard strings on it, then replace the standard strings with nylon or silicone strings and repeat. Compare the amplitude of the respective recordings. That should demonstrate the contribution of body vibrations to the overall sound.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, tauzero said:

 

For a valid comparison doing this, record a bass at full volume with standard strings on it, then replace the standard strings with nylon or silicone strings and repeat. Compare the amplitude of the respective recordings. That should demonstrate the contribution of body vibrations to the overall sound.

Not sure you've read my post, it's a  post to demonstrate that there is contact vibration to a mounted pickup even with strings removed!

Your experiment will only tell me the difference the different strings have in relationship with the instrument, which is not what I'm saying in the post you've addressed.

Edited July 18 by Tobe

[Baloney Balderdash]

20 minutes ago, tauzero said:

 

For a valid comparison doing this, record a bass at full volume with standard strings on it, then replace the standard strings with nylon or silicone strings and repeat. Compare the amplitude of the respective recordings. That should demonstrate the contribution of body vibrations to the overall sound.

No it won't.

 

Your logic is flawed.

 

Think again!

[Frank Blank]

2 hours ago, ezbass said:

Without weighing in with an opinion one way of the other, with all the times that this subject arises, does anyone actually change their mind? My guessing is no. What we inevitably end up with is pantomime, “Oh, yes it does!” “Oh, no it doesn’t!” In addition, it creates some bad feeling. Maybe we should have a no politics, no religion, no tonewood ruling. 🤔

Yes, this is very true EZ old man, but the thread also serves another invaluable purpose in that it gently, yet succinctly, unearths tossers. In a tosser-free forum this thread would have occurred once and lasted a page at most with everyone quickly and reasonably agreeing that wood does (or maybe doesn't) affect tone to a lesser (or indeed greater) degree and, as its huge (or possibly infinitesimal) influence on tone is neither quantifiable nor, much more importantly, adjustable, and we'd all have scratched our heads, thoughtfully stroked our chins and retired affably to the pub.

 

Unfortunately, thirty pages in, we haven't got anywhere nearer an answer and that's simply because there isn't a definitive one, which is why people get so hot under the collar. Without @Muzz's spot on appeal for empirical evidence, of which there is none, that vacuum  is filled with speculation and opinion, both of which are fine, as long as we realise that's what they are, speculation and opinions, neither of which, in my humble opinion, are hills worth dying on.

[Doctor J]

1 hour ago, Tobe said:

Not sure you've read my post, it's a  post to demonstrate that there is contact vibration to a mounted pickup even with strings removed!

Your experiment will only tell me the difference the different strings have in relationship with the instrument, which is not what I'm saying in the post you've addressed.

What are the basses? Are you referring to solid body basses with metal strings and a magnetic pickup?

[JoeEvans]

I don't really understand how anyone can argue about the theory of this - either it's an observable fact that different types of wood create different tones, or it isn't. How hard can it be to line up three otherwise identical basses with bodies and necks made of different types of wood, record them and do a blind listening test? And until that's done, why on earth would you bother arguing about it?

[Muzz]

38 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

The thing all the ATL (anti tonewood league) seems to simply refuse or maybe refute is that an electric instrument is before all an acoustic instrument with its own tone coming mainly from the wood and if you had just took the time to watch Roger Sadowsky's video that's the first thing he explains.

One of Roger's opening lines is '...over time I've come to realise...'  which is, yet again, non-empirical, and rather undermines the rest of it...

38 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

That said, the ATL is also convinced that tonewood is defacto exotic expensive wood, which is absolutely not the case.

Show me where somebody said that. I have implied that luthiers selling expensive instruments have employed marketing flimflam (and a good read of that Alembic page illustrates that) to help sell their instruments, for sound business reasons. I've also alluded to where bass makers who don't need such a marketing edge (Fender, for example), markedly don't.

 

38 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

So I'm simply tired to hear the same comments again and again from people hiding themselves behind science, even if too often they don't really understand it, hence my question about believing in any god...

Odd you mention religion (again): the complete lack of empirical evidence for any of the claims about specific tonewoods making specific tones means that people claiming (without any possible material gain) that is so believe in something without any proof. I believe in other circles that's called 'faith'...  No-one's hiding behind science; a healthy request for anything, anything at all to prove any of it is hardly unreasonable.

 

Then again, as I say, you do you, I'll do me.