East Pre makes pickups sound better, even in Passive mode

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, Killed_by_Death said:

no, as per my explanation above, they're in series internally, I'd like to hear them in parallel internally

 

Ahh ok

22 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

The series/parallel switching between pickups has a bit of a compromise that's a bigger issue when you're using *humbuckers (in this case split-coil humbuckers), when the switch is in Series you can't blend the pickups, & that is the time when you'd most want to blend them. 

Well, you could if you wanted, but it would be a bit of a compromise with the wiring (although a 4 pole switch would do it).

22 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

*humbuckers have more coils & thus more Inductance, putting them in Series lowers the Resonant peak, resulting in more lows

Do they? Obviously the total inductance of two coils in series where they are independant is the sum of both inductances, but the inductance of two coils in series when they are magnetically coupled can be less (or more, depends on the coupling). 

Clearly it is more from both pickups, but whether it makes that much difference I don't know.

I have a bass which has Parallel / series wiring (actually two parallel / series / single coil humbuckers connected with a parallel series switch).  It is hard to tell which is bassier as the pickups are just way too loud in almost every circumstance!

[Killed_by_Death]

 

DPDT is enough poles for a series/parallel between pickups, but for switching two pickups internally from series/parallel you'd either need two DPDT or one 4-pole switch.

The magnetic coupling of coils in a split-coil would be less than a full-length humbucker.

I had a G&L L-2000 with the series/single/parallel switching, four poles on the switch, & the output was much greater in series, as was the amount of lows, but those are full-length MFD humbuckers:

BTW, that series/parallel switch is ONLY intra-pickup, not inter-pickup

 

[Woodinblack]

7 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

The magnetic coupling of coils in a split-coil would be less than a full-length humbucker.

Quite considerably so

7 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

I had a G&L L-2000 with the series/single/parallel switching, four poles on the switch, & the output was much greater in series, as was the amount of lows, but those are full-length MFD humbuckers:

I did too. Well, it was an L2500 but the same idea. 

[Killed_by_Death]

 

The MFD are The Highest Output passive pickups I've ever experienced, but especially so in Series.

The Single switch position is where I left it, & eventually I realized that I just liked the Big Singles in my Premium Soundgear more, & my Soundgear was easier to play with the flat radius & a few hundred Grams lower-Mass

My G&L ASAT had ruined me to that high output. I went shopping for a Rickenbacker & they all sounded so weak, in comparison.

 

[Woodinblack]

9 hours ago, Killed_by_Death said:

The MFD are The Highest Output passive pickups I've ever experienced, but especially so in Series.

Yes, they were too until I tried the wizzard pickups, which is what my series/parallel bass has.

The MFDs are really too hot. I think that is why they toned them down for the M2500

9 hours ago, Killed_by_Death said:

The Single switch position is where I left it, & eventually I realized that I just liked the Big Singles in my Premium Soundgear more, & my Soundgear was easier to play with the flat radius & a few hundred Grams lower-Mass

I often feel with my basses, I should probably just put all the controls outbourd, play it for a bit and then take the pots and switches out and replace them with fixed wiring / resistors at the values I want! Leave it with a volume with push to kill.

9 hours ago, Killed_by_Death said:

My G&L ASAT had ruined me to that high output. I went shopping for a Rickenbacker & they all sounded so weak, in comparison.

Well, rics do sound a bit weak, which is not like quiet - all my SRs souned quieter than the L2500, but they didn't sound weak, they just had less volume.

[LukeFRC]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

The MFDs are really too hot. I think that is why they toned them down for the M2500

Agree. Main reason I sold my L1000. Lovely sounding but just took more effort to work if going direct to board

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

Well, rics do sound a bit weak, which is not like quiet - all my SRs souned quieter than the L2500, but they didn't sound weak, they just had less volume.

It's almost as if they should design amplifiers with an input stage to allow adjustment for different outputs... 

[Woodinblack]

12 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

It's almost as if they should design amplifiers with an input stage to allow adjustment for different outputs... 

Amplified weak is still weak

 

[Killed_by_Death]

 

They made the pickups in the M series G&Ls less output so that it would play nice with the BOOST knobs on the preamp.

If you put the L series MFD pickup in with a BOOSTable EQ, someone could easily blow up some stuff.

 

[Killed_by_Death]

 

There are a couple of things that are probably the contributors, if he's not using bog-standard carbon-traces in the pots, & in the specs it specifies the active & passive paths are NOT the same, dual pathways still mystifies me.

Another thing that I found peculiar is that East specifies in the installation instructions to use copper foil shielding. (and NOT to rely on carbon shielding from the manufacturer)

I'm sure that info used to be on their FAQ page, but not at the moment.

 

So I guess my question to the forum is:

Where can I get pots that are better than the bog-standard carbon-trace ones?

I might copper-shield mine & make it 100% passive if I could find better pots.

 

[itu]

11 hours ago, Killed_by_Death said:

Where can I get pots that are better than the bog-standard carbon-trace ones?

I might copper-shield mine & make it 100% passive if I could find better pots.

East suggests copper shielding, but the carbon paint is a functional alternative. If it is there already, I see no need to change it.

https://www.mouser.co.uk/

Find "Bourns" and "conductive plastic". Those blue pots cost quite some more than carbon Alphas, but the quality is far higher. You may not notice any change in the sound, but conductive plastic does not create noise, like carbon, and the lifetime is longer.

[Hellzero]

John East is advising use of copper for shielding instead of carbon paint, simply because copper is way more conductive and there won't be any break in conductivity to the ground just like it happens too often with graphite paint.

Put your multimeter to the conductivity function and check the real resistivity, you'll be surprised by the difference in readings between copper shielding and graphite (or even copper) paint.

You can also check Alps for conductive plastic trace pots, but they will be more expensive.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Hellzero
Wording

[Killed_by_Death]

 

The carbon paint measured 500 Ohms, which surprised me on a G&L that I owned, but it still worked to shield it.

East is probably using the shielding to connect the pots together, like is common on a Jazz controls-plate.

I've seen some Jazz controls-plates where there was no wire to the sleeve side of the output jack, because it's already connected to the metal plate.

 

[Passinwind]

7 hours ago, itu said:

East suggests copper shielding, but the carbon paint is a functional alternative. If it is there already, I see no need to change it.

https://www.mouser.co.uk/

Find "Bourns" and "conductive plastic". Those blue pots cost quite some more than carbon Alphas, but the quality is far higher. You may not notice any change in the sound, but conductive plastic does not create noise, like carbon, and the lifetime is longer.

I use Bourns CP pots quite a bit, the actual measured resistance tolerances tend to be better as well. Many people seem to dislike the low rotation torque though, and I rarely put them in other people's  basses for that reason.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Passinwind

[itu]

1 hour ago, Killed_by_Death said:

I've seen some Jazz controls-plates where there was no wire to the sleeve side of the output jack, because it's...

...cheap. But not so reliable. I seriously doubt that John East would rely only on copper foil.

Copper foil is relatively cheap, and the tapes can be connected together with soldering. Lifelong solution.

Edited May 4, 2021 by itu

[Passinwind]

18 hours ago, Killed_by_Death said:

Where can I get pots that are better than the bog-standard carbon-trace ones?

 

 

The Dunlop "super pot" seems to live up to its billing so far, but my sample size is a whopping one unit. 

[Killed_by_Death]

 

I had been looking at Mouser & only just noticed you can scroll to the right for more specs, DOH!

Looks like limited options, if you're not willing to buy in quantities of 100s.

 

[Passinwind]

1 hour ago, Killed_by_Death said:

 

I had been looking at Mouser & only just noticed you can scroll to the right for more specs, DOH!

Looks like limited options, if you're not willing to buy in quantities of 100s.

 

The Bourns HRT (high rotation torque) variants don't have the same cheesy feel and physical noise as the cheaper Bourns carbon pots,  but AFAIK they only come in 24mm dia. / 3/8" bushing sizing.

[Beedster]

On 18/04/2021 at 17:37, Dood said:

Maybe it’s just the quality of the Ibañez stock circuit? It’s built to a (low) price- and its passive bypass might not be designed to such high standards as the East circuit. For example more components, especially cheaper ones left in the circuit can create more noise, impedance loading and possible degradation of signal. There are ways of producing an effect or preamp which will work, for a cheaper price - and those more complex circuits that produce better results... at a cost.

so, to sum up, a better designed circuit will produce better results, but will cost more - and that’s not something the bean counters like when it comes to profit in already tight margins of mass produced products.

Yep, not so much making the PUP sound better as much as having less of a negative effect

[LukeFRC]

5 hours ago, Killed_by_Death said:

East is probably using the shielding to connect the pots together, like is common on a Jazz controls-plate.

He’s not, it’s a really high end preamp, it’s done properly. 

[Killed_by_Death]

 

That's it, tomorrow I'm tearing the guts out & wiring the pickups straight to the jack!

I don't actually want the East preamp, but I do WANT that better-sounding 100% passive.

G&L did it right with the SB-2, two volume controls, & that's IT.

Unfortunately they still love those Fender-ish 250K Ohm pots for Volume.

only kidding about tearing out my controls, I wish there weren't FIVE holes in the top, LOL!

 

[Owen]

Ooooooft! G&L are ON IT in terms of finishes!

[Killed_by_Death]

 

doomed to always be an outlier, I prefer non-opaque finishes:

Edited May 4, 2021 by Killed_by_Death
changed image