Perception of quality

[DiMarco]

I started out like many, playing on what I could afford in my early twenties.
My second bass was a Japanese Fender Jazz, better then my first (which I believe was a Fernandes).

Long story short, after 30+ years of playing and trading up I now own instruments said to be top notch. Brands are Fodera, Zon, Sadowsky etc.
I like to think I have a good idea about the quality of instruments BUT...

I saw a young lad with lots of talent totally rip **** up on a cheap Squier Jazz the other day. He sounded awesome and I was loving it.

So are we simply spoiling ourselves for no real good reason when moving on to "better" instruments?
Are the most pricey and iconic brands of instruments for lawyers, dentists, IT folk (me) and alike who pretend to be musicians?

I wonder what would happen if I would switch to the cheapest of basses right now. Could I come to terms with playing those again? Has anyone tried this?

When thinking back to my early gigging days, I do not think I was having any less fun with those cheap instruments then I am having right now with the pricey ones...

Have you ever thought about these things? I am wondering if I am the only one.

Any response is welcome.

Edited April 24, 2021 by DiMarco

[Dan Dare]

How are we "spoiling ourselves"? I've worked for 50 odd years to be able to afford nice things and I'm going to enjoy them.

Why not buy a cheapy and try it? Plenty of bargains about at the moment. Or make a Bitsa? I did recently and I like it, but wouldn't sell my better instruments and use it exclusively.

Playability is mainly in the set up. I played cheapies when I was starting out (as did almost everyone) and had fun. I could happily play one now if there was nothing else available (and I know a lot more about set up than I did back in the day, so could get it to work better), but I prefer to use what I have now.

That's it, really.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Dan Dare

[Lozz196]

I gigged with Squiers and Mex Fenders in my last band and didn’t enjoy the gigs any less due to that. For my needs Mex Fenders are more than sufficient, but I prefer the US ones so they’re what I have. It’s like this hoo-doo over me that says I must have the US ones, I do prefer them, but I know that as a Fender nut the Mex ones are more than up to the job.

I did try going back to the Mex ones a while back but a good deal on a US one came along so I was back on that route again.

On the punk scene many of the bassists in well known bands use Mex Fenders, and quite a few guitarists use Epiphone guitars.

I do however have no interest in going “higher”, Fender US are the pinnacle for me. 

[Cato]

I think these dsys the quality of budget instruments is such that there is not a huge difference in sound between a Squier Jazz and US Fender Jazz.

They're both going to sound fundamentally like a Jazz.

The extra £1k+ gets you a beter feeling instrument with better, quieter electronics and a few other things that are nice to have, but with in a band context I think most of us would struggle to tell the Squier from the Fender in a blindfold sound test.

But I think that's sort of missing the point, I always think that with expensive basses it's more about the feel and, to a lesser extent, the aesthetics of the instrument.

[PaulWarning]

if we never bought 'quality' instruments we'd always be wondering if they're better than what we've got.

[Al Krow]

You and I recently discussed this very point! 😊

On 07/04/2021 at 17:52, Al Krow said:

I'll happily pit my £500 Chinese made Yamaha BB against your German (or USA) made Sadowsky P and assure you that no pub audience will notice the difference 😁 But put the exact same basses in the hands of Kinga Glyk and I suspect no stadium audience would notice the difference either. I don't buy the concept of a "world class bass", but there are clearly world class bass players! I think you'll find that basses end up sounding pretty much like the men and women who play them. Obviously we all have more or less money to spend on our gear and can get our basses accordingly...

You replied:

On 07/04/2021 at 20:57, DiMarco said:

I agree with none of those points but hey. to each his own. If you don't notice the difference, for you there is no difference.

But if you now swap "cheap Squier Jazz" and "young lad with lots of talent" for "Yamaha BB" and "Kinga Glyk", you could now be writing my earlier post! But it's absolutely not wrong to want to have and to get some great bass gear. I posted this comment on another thread about GAS earlier today which is where I've come to on my own little bass journey:

"Folk are perfectly entitled to spend their money how they like and if bass gear gives them pleasure, because bass is their passion, then that's totally cool. If it becomes an addiction that you can't control and it's causing you financial problems, we'll that's an entirely different matter. Equally it's unquestionably true that improving our bass playing comes mostly from hard work practising and not from more fancy gear: great bass players will make basic gear sound awesome and a beginner is going to be a beginner even on the most high end kit." 

 

TLDR: enjoy your gear with a clear conscience; but if you want to be a better bass player there's no substitute for time spent on the fretboard.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Al Krow

[DiMarco]

Yes we did. It is good to question yourself now and then, I think. I am openly wondering if I'd happily settle for cheaper lines of instruments, now that I have heard fine tone can be accomplished with a squier and the likes.

Years ago I owned an epiphone sg guitar that had me spend more time tuning then playing. Nowadays the difference isn't that lage anymore I reckon.

I sound perfectly fine on any bass. Am just wondering what I actually gained now that I have become more demanding about those instruments that's all.

No need to be petronizing mr krow. I have spent 30 years on fretboards.

 

 

Edited April 24, 2021 by DiMarco

[Al Krow]

On 24/04/2021 at 17:53, DiMarco said:

Yes we did...I have spent 30 years on fretboards. 

@DiMarco That's a lot of fretboard time and no doubt you've become a very good bass player and had some fun along the way? At the end of the day, that should really be all that matters. 

Expensive or cheap, play what you can and want to afford and enjoy it. A player with 30 years experience should really be able to make any well set up bass sound good. 

Edited April 26, 2021 by Al Krow

[TheGreek]

What we don't necessarily appreciate is how good "budget" gear is today compared to what was around when we started playing. I started playing in the early/mid 80s and TBH a lot of the used gear that was available was garbage.

Nowadays, I keep finding budget gear that is surprisingly good.

Like many here I am financially stable with disposable income so, for me, spending it on myself  and my hobbies is completely justifiable. Whenever I've had high end gear I've been too precious with it so had trouble justifying having it sitting in a case rather than using it.

I believe that there is a psychological benefit from using high end gear - having nice gear makes me want to play more and I get more satisfaction from playing.

I'm glad that young people have access to resources that weren't available when I started playing. Anything that highlights the Bass guitar (over geeetars) is a good thing in my mind.

[Crawford13]

What is great here is that it's not only me that struggles with this. I go through phases of can I justify this expensive gear, should I downgrade? 

But the conclusion I have come to is its just GAS and I like the hunt of researching gear. But in all honesty I don't see me moving away from my Alphers. They are just incredible instruments made by great people. 

[JapanAxe]

In my guitar rack I have a 1985 Squier Tele alongside a Palir Titan T-type that cost me 10 times as much. They are both lovely instruments and both get gigged according to my whim at the time. Whatever works for you, do it, and fup the rest.

[TheLowDown]

Price is invariably equated with quality, and marketing people know this all too well. Unfortunately, a lot of consumers don't. This is why I do my research and buy a bass or other at a reasonable price to get the best quality at the lowest price. Nowadays you really can get an awesome quality bass at a low cost because of the level of technology available and manufacturing centres in the East. Therefore, all of my basses are each under £200. There is literally no reason why I need to spend above that that will offer anything more than the basses that I have already.

I don't really see the point of paying  £567 for a packet of biscuits when I can get good quality biscuits for significantly less, although some people buy into the idea that a £576 packet of biscuits with a prestigious brand name on the packet will give them the best quality biscuits that money can buy.

Edited April 24, 2021 by TheLowDown

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

1 hour ago, DiMarco said:

....after 30+ years of playing and trading up I now own instruments said to be top notch. Brands are Fodera, Zon, Sadowsky etc. I like to think I have a good idea about the quality of instruments BUT...

I saw a young lad with lots of talent totally rip **** up on a cheap Squier Jazz the other day. He sounded awesome and I was loving it.

But, did you see the same lad rip it up on a Zon? Both of you may have enjoyed it even more 🤷‍♂️.

No disrespect, but this has been round the houses many times. Put a great player on a cheapo bass and he/she is gonna be great whatever. Put a crap player on an expensive bass and he/she will still sound crap. 

[nilebodgers]

I agree with Lozz that the current Mex Fenders are very good.

I've now got a 2017 US Jazz and a 2012 Mex P and the P plays just as nicely as the Jazz. However, I had to do a bit of fret work and soften the hard 90deg edge on the P fingerboard where the Jazz was perfect from the off. The Jazz did cost 2.5 times more than the P though, so a bit more work to get it right isn't out of order IMO (both s/h).

I previously had a 2008 Mex Jazz and it was definitely a step down both in build quality and playability so Fender have upped their game in recent years with their Mex ranges.

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, DiMarco said:

I wonder what would happen if I would switch to the cheapest of basses right now. Could I come to terms with playing those again? Has anyone tried this?

As @TheGreek said the quality of less expensive basses these days can be really good. Whether you can come to terms with playing cheap basses is a question only you can answer - what is your motivation for only playing expensive basses? 

2 hours ago, DiMarco said:

When thinking back to my early gigging days, I do not think I was having any less fun with those cheap instruments then I am having right now with the pricey ones...

The amount of fun I get from a gig bears zero correlation to the cost of the bass I'm playing at the time. It's irrelevant. If we're playing tight and the audience are loving the set - that makes for fun.

Will you be regularly gigging again post lockdown? If so, why don't you try it and see if playing a cheaper bass spoils your fun. If it doesn't you'll have your answer!

[Ed_S]

Speaking as an IT guy who pretends to be a musician 😉 I freely admit that I’ve thrown too much money at questionable upgrades.

As a result, experience tells me that a Sterling Ray35 can sound miles better than a ‘proper’ Stingray 5, that a MIM standard Fender P can have more tonal variation in one passive potentiometer than a MIA deluxe P manages with a spare J pickup and a full onboard preamp, that you can have a bass made for you by a very well respected luthier which is an utter disappointment, and that you can pick up the cheapest Ibanez in the ex-demo discount pile and find a genuinely nice instrument which weighs less than a Sandberg SL but has been ignored just because it’s finished in what Dulux might call ‘gravy brown’!

Go on an open-minded cheap bass hunt - you never know what you might find! 🙂 

[itu]

4 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

Playability is mainly in the set up.

That's it, really.

Do agree! I bought parts and put them together: a Status MM neck, a nice sunbust Hosco body, an EMG DC pickup, a step attenuator (built by me), a tone switch, SS RW light gauge. Parts were close to £1000. But no, wasn't good at all.

I took the bass to a master for a professional setup. Almost £200 and... the strings can be adjusted ridiculously low. Feels totally different. Competes easily with my Vigiers.

But who would put nearly £200 to an instrument that costs as much? ...and make it feel like much more expensive bass?

[peteb]

I remember having a chat with Phil Nixon (the guy who used to run Bass Gear) when he first started carrying Fodera basses. He said that loads of guys slagged Fodera off as just being boutique basses and being no better than basses costing a fraction of the price. He just used to get them to plug one in for fifteen minutes and it was remarkable how many changed their minds; indeed several of them started making plans to sell all of their basses to buy one Fodera. As Phil said, if there is something that you can nearly play on a cheaper bass, the chances are you can play it easily on the Fodera!

As far as I’m concerned, if you have ambitions to be a proper player, you should get the best bass that you can afford and that suits you as soon as you can. You don’t need a collection of basses (although a spare comes in useful), but something that works for the gigs / genre you play. When I got my first job, working backstage in a theatre part time for the equivalent of minimum wage, I saved up to buy an American Fender P bass. I still have the same bass now (admittedly I did sell it, then buy it back)!

If you can play like Jaco, then you will be a great bass player on any playable bass! But then again, you will be even better on a better bass! But if you can’t play like Jaco, then a decent bass (preferable with a credible provenance) will help you to play and sound better, as well as impress prospective band leaders (who do like people turning up with guitars that they are impressed / familiar with, like it or not)!

But what do I know, I’ve only been gigging for more than 40 years and never had to pretend to be a musician! 

Edited April 25, 2021 by peteb

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

8 hours ago, peteb said:

You don’t need a collection of basses....

You were doing so well there, then you ruined it 😂

I don’t get the bashing Fodera receive from time to time either. Yes, there’ll be the % that have tried them and genuinely don’t like them, much the same as myself and almost anything with Gibson written on it. However, I suspect there a few that haven’t tried them and pigeonhole them as boutique/overpriced which they are far from IMHO. I’ve had a few Foderas and wouldn’t have sold any of them if money weren’t a factor.

[peteb]

1 hour ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

You were doing so well there, then you ruined it 😂

I don’t get the bashing Fodera receive from time to time either. Yes, there’ll be the % that have tried them and genuinely don’t like them, much the same as myself and almost anything with Gibson written on it. However, I suspect there a few that haven’t tried them and pigeonhole them as boutique/overpriced which they are far from IMHO. I’ve had a few Foderas and wouldn’t have sold any of them if money weren’t a factor.

Fodera are a good example of a bass that some people dismiss as being boutique and start sprouting nonsense like 'there's no difference between a Fodera and my Squier / Harley Benton / entry level Yamaha' etc. 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that you need to spend anything like that amount of money to get a giggable bass and I appreciate that entry level basses are a lot better than when I started out. Get a secondhand Stingray or US standard Fender or something similar when you can afford it and it will sound great and will cover any gig that you are likely to get, throughout your career as a bass player. 

[tegs07]

15 hours ago, TheGreek said:

What we don't necessarily appreciate is how good "budget" gear is today compared to what was around when we started playing. I started playing in the early/mid 80s and TBH a lot of the used gear that was available was garbage.

....

I'm glad that young people have access to resources that weren't available when I started playing. Anything that highlights the Bass guitar (over geeetars) is a good thing in my mind.

This is so true. “My” first bass was a borrowed MIJ jazz clone. I think it was a Columbus. It was made of a mixture of lead and concrete and a swarm of angry bees had been inserted under the control plate. I later bought an Encore P which was a bit like the Columbus but thankfully had no trapped bees.

Edited April 25, 2021 by tegs07

[WAYNESWORLD]

Sometimes imho we get craftsmanship mixed up with how good a product is. If a purchase gives pleasure and we are happy with its price that should be enough. We do spend a lot of time trying to justify our choices to others by comparison’s instead of saying that we love the bass for what it is.The example I will give is watches another great topic on here. Craftsmen ship is what separates that market. Price does not determine which watch gives the best time as a £5 battery driven time piece will out perform any mechanical watch for accuracy.Some of us still spend finances allowing more money on some watches than others but all tell the time.Therefore any bass that can be set up to the required standard with a feel and sound that please’s the owner is a good one. Aspiration to own a crafted item does not have to be justified at the detriment to another instrument.If your choice makes you happy job done if you think spending lots of money will make you sound better well,,, one size does not fit all.But there are not many bad quality bass’s made these days but the quality of marketing has grown out of all proportion compared to the 70s and 80s and its impact can not be ignored on our choices even when we don’t think it has.

[Skybone]

One of the best basses that I ever owned cost me £50 off a mate. If I still had it, I could sell it for a damn sight more than I bought it for. There again, if I still had it, I wouldn't sell it. It was a Westone Thunder 1A.

Saying that, I do really, really like the basses I have now.

[Woodinblack]

15 hours ago, Al Krow said:

The amount of fun I get from a gig bears zero correlation to the cost of the bass I'm playing at the time. It's irrelevant. If we're playing tight and the audience are loving the set - that makes for fun.!

I played my wrongo at a gig once, and it played fine (battery drain not withstanding). I even got comments about it later

14 hours ago, Ed_S said:

but has been ignored just because it’s finished in what Dulux might call ‘gravy brown’!

Never knew why Ibanez are so hung up on that colour, so many people denied the sr505 due to it!

3 hours ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

I don’t get the bashing Fodera receive from time to time either. 

For me, honestly it is the look. I know they must be great as people pay that much for them, and I have never and doubt I will ever had a chance to try one, but they are so aesthetically painful!

I know, it's shallow 😀

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

1 minute ago, Woodinblack said:

For me, honestly it is the look. I know they must be great as people pay that much for them, and I have never and doubt I will ever had a chance to try one, but they are so aesthetically painful!

I know, it's shallow 😀

Yes, and that’s absolutely fine. I would never argue that aesthetics shouldn’t be a factor in deciding what you want to play.

A couple of their models don’t do it for me, but I love everything about the Monarch design.