Compressor misconceptions

[Cuzzie]

Firstly - nice playing

Secondly - it’s an obvious difference between compression and not

Thirdly - not right or wrong on level of compression, maybe release it a little and see how it sounds and feels. It’s what is right for you

[Chienmortbb]

On 14/05/2021 at 13:21, itu said:

Felix was German.

La chanson de Roland is French.

Do these two together make Japan? Or just hot air? Who am I? Is there any beer? [screams and runs away...]

Felix was Gerrman but is was the Japanese that made the Wankel engine work commercially. Sadly I cannot fit one on my pedal board.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Chienmortbb

[itu]

23 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

Felix was German but is was the Japanese that made the Wankel engine work commercially.

Well, there was NSU Ro80, and that motorbike... Hercules, but it is true that Japanese made it happen. By the way, it was very close that Suzuki did not go bankrupt because of wankel.

http://www.suzukicycles.org/RE5/index.html?RE5-Rotary.shtml

[PaulWarning]

10 hours ago, jrixn1 said:

Due to this thread, I went and bought my first compressor - a Spectracomp.  Here are three takes bumbling through Sir Duke.  One is bypassed, one is the default toneprint at 12 o'clock, and one is the 'Captain East' toneprint at 12 o'clock.  Is it clear which is which?  I think the uncompressed one does sound a bit uneven in parts.  The other two, is 12 o'clock about right - or do I need to dial it up, or down?

 

A.mp3 1.09 MB · 5 downloads B.mp3 1.09 MB · 3 downloads C.mp3 1.09 MB · 3 downloads

just done a comparison and I can hear very little difference, (disclaimer, the song is not my cup of tea) 

[BadHands]

On 16/05/2021 at 21:39, krispn said:

I was playing with my comp into my Apollo messing with some new DAW preamps and there’s that thing where the bass sound just becomes that bit more ‘professional’ like it’s already been mixed into the track when jamming along to recorded music. Obviously balancing volume counts too but with that wee push on my bass the sound just punched. I love it and f*ck the crowd! I like what my compressor does and I will gladly use it at every conceivable opportunity. If you can’t hear it/feel it/vibe it then that’s cool. 

I saw a guitar-gear-youtube guy make an interesting point about this. Words to the effect of:

"If a chef prepares his dish with $600 knives, am I going to taste the difference between that and a $20 knife? No, but if he wants to use better tools, that's his prerogative". Art is art.

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited March 14, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[jrixn1]

8 hours ago, Cuzzie said:

Secondly - it’s an obvious difference between compression and not

Thirdly - not right or wrong on level of compression, maybe release it a little and see how it sounds and feels. It’s what is right for you

 

4 hours ago, PaulWarning said:

just done a comparison and I can hear very little difference, (disclaimer, the song is not my cup of tea) 

Thanks guys for having a listen.  No gigs in June, but July has filled up; I'll see how I get on with it over the next few months.

[Al Krow]

29 minutes ago, Jus Lukin said:

All this trying to hear the difference business is still playing on my mind.

The more time one has put in, the more recognisable the signs become, but properly done, in most cases, compression shouldn't be obvious.

An analogy which might help to shift the thinking on this is shock absorbers on a bus. The point is not that passengers get on and are instantly aware of the fine quality, well tuned twin-tube pneumatic whatevers. The shocks are not supposed to be noticed at all, their job is to make sure that the passengers notice the bumps in the road less. The upshot should be that no-one notices the shocks, and doesn't feel the bumps so much either. The unawareness is kind of the point.

Likewise, compression isn't about adding some 'magic' to the sound- it's about subtly reducing factors which can be detrimental to a mix.

I think you make a really good point.

I can easily hear the difference in tone between my basses through the same rigs, or the same bass with different pups selected. I can distinguish quite easily different flavours of drive. I suspect a lot of us can, because we're listening out for it all the time. So with training we certainly can hear nuances of tonal differences.

Similarly with compression. But for me it's the next level up in terms of tonal nuance and there are so many things that "swamp" it. I'm just still not convinced audiences in a live pub setting ever will.

Studio compression with attack and release tweaked for each individual track for the bass to fit sweetly with the drums etc makes a lot of sense and why it's pretty much always done and done well by skilled sound engineers.

Sid put it really well when he summarised it as follows:

On 11/05/2021 at 19:55, Osiris said:

Slow and steady wins the race. Good job really as speed isn't so easily achieved when dragging an exoskeleton around at all times 🦀. But baby steps are the way to go, it's not something anybody will master overnight, take your time, experiment with the various controls, listen and feel to what's happening to the sound, how much more consistent and controlled the bass is, how it sits better with the instruments around it, how it becomes more punchy and so on. As a sweeping generalisation less is usually more, and embrace the fact nobody other than you may notice or care. 

Which is why if it makes you happy about your live sound, go for it. I just happen to be in the camp that agrees with his last sentence. 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Al Krow

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited March 14, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Al Krow]

@Jus Lukin no need to be quite so dismissive of a genuinely held difference of viewpoint as "trolling". It's just simply a difference of viewpoint about the value of compression for something like a pub gig, and one shared by several others in this thread and more widely on BC. And if folk are interested to explore the subject then they're perfectly capable of listening to the points made and to make up their own minds, surely, just as @jrixn1is now doing.

If you happen to go onto a thread about slap bass you'll find views expressed both for and against too! Life isn't just one shade of colour and there isn't always a wrong and right. 

7 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

Felix was German but is was the Japanese that made the Wankel engine work commercially. Sadly I cannot fit one on my pedal board.

Mazda previews imminent rotary engine revival | Autocar

Edited May 27, 2021 by Al Krow

[BadHands]

Just when we thought we were done with semantics..

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited March 14, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Osiris]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

@Jus Lukinno need to be quite so dismissive of a genuinely held difference of viewpoint as "trolling". It's just simply a difference of viewpoint about the value of compression for something like a pub gig, and one shared by several others in this thread and more widely on BC. 

But where do you draw the line? Just about everything about the bass and bass player will go unnoticed by the average pub crowd unless they are other musicians, especially bass players themselves. Off the top of my baldy head this includes, but is not limited to;

5 string basses, active pre-amps, through-neck construction, 24 fret necks, the weight of your cab, the brand of bass/amp/cab/effects you are using, etc...

All of these are things that you have posted about at length over the years, as such they are important to you and you've spent a considerable amount of money on getting gear that meet your requirements. But, whether you like it or not, nobody else will notice or care unless as mentioned earlier, they are other bass players. These people who don't notice are the exact same people who don't notice if you are compressing or not.

So what makes compression any different? Yes it's subtle, but arguably more noticeable than the perceived benefits of a through neck, active bass against a traditional Fender design.

If we're speaking in abstract collectives, there are several folk on here that are actively extolling the benefits of compression and how it helps, how it makes you sit better in the mix, it adds a consistency to the bass sound that cannot be achieved by technique alone despite claims to the contrary. I ask again, If it makes the bass sit better and sound more professional, for want of a better vague description, why not use it?

[Al Krow]

Haha Sid - I think the consensus is that Mr Al Krow should keep off this subject 😉

Tbf - I really said all I wanted to say in my very first post on this thread and shouldn't have subsequently risen to the bait of responding to the comp fanboys thereafter. But you know how it is: it's too easy to put fingers to keyboard and pop one off as it were, particularly when you're quoted.

FWIW - as I said in my earlier post, I thought you summarised the whole thing very well in the post from you I quoted. There's lots of balanced wisdom in there both for comp lovers and users as well as as those who feel use of comps in pubs (or at all) is a bit pointless. [As I know you know that I know you know, that I know...]

Oh and when you say: "Just about everything about the bass and bass player will go unnoticed by the average pub crowd", I'm afraid I completely disagree with that statement! But that's a whole 'nother topic!

[51m0n]

On 10/05/2021 at 16:03, nilebodgers said:

The irony of all this is the FOH engineer at a decent size gig would completely ignore a pedal compressor anyway. The channel strip compression facilities on any decent digital desk runs rings round any of these pedals.

Not my Becos Twain. By a significant margin it outperforms digital desk compression in my experience.

[51m0n]

Can't believe I missed all the fun of this thread 😆

Oh hold on, that's right, it's threads like these rehashing the same old stinky poo from the same entrenched positions that keep me off basschat.

So, Al, do everyone and yourself a favour and go do a sound engineering course. Seriously. Learn to mix. Learn how to use compression for real.

Until you do that you haven't got a hope in hell of keeping up with the "compression fanboys" (seriously condescending term, like bass playing troglodytes or technophobic under achievers).

You rehash your argument over and over again. But it's clearly absurd.

Are you saying that compression can't change the sound of a bass in a mix enough to warrant it at a gig? Seriously? Because we've gone over that enough times, people have demonstrated before. You just keep coming back to compression as some peculiar bug bear.

I tell you this, compression will make a bigger difference than neck through construction or tone woods in a mix. Not pick up choice though in my experience. Can a punter hear it. No. Can they perhaps better experience the mix because of it? I reckon so.

But, and this is a killer, you need to understand how to use it and to get it right you do need to learn effective ways to set it up. So go do that.

I do bugger all gigs to not many people. So obviously I know naff all about compression, am some lunatic swivel eyed fanboy and can be effectively dismissed as such regardless of over thirty years being fascinated in sound engineering starting out in studios where your 24 track machine was your got to compressor and saturation plug in.

 

@Happy Jack is about the only BCer who has seen my band in play, ask him if we sounded ok as we happily spent an evening making music for a paltry audience in a tiny pub for the joy of playing music we like, and almost only we like 😆

[Kev]

Who put 50p in this thread??

 

[peteb]

1 hour ago, Osiris said:

But where do you draw the line? Just about everything about the bass and bass player will go unnoticed by the average pub crowd unless they are other musicians, especially bass players themselves. Off the top of my baldy head this includes, but is not limited to;

 

 

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Oh and when you say: "Just about everything about the bass and bass player will go unnoticed by the average pub crowd", I'm afraid I completely disagree with that statement! But that's a whole 'nother topic!

It is not the audience’s job to notice details about the bass player’s sound. However, what they are very good at doing is comparing the band they are watching on any given night to the one they saw last week. Generally, most punters can tell the difference between the better bands and ones that aren’t that great. What the band sound like is obviously a big part of how a band is perceived and how the bass sits in the mix is a small, but important part of that.

Compression is a tool to get a bass to cut through the mix and there is a reason why most of the better bass players I know (but by no means all) use a PB compressor when playing live. You may or may not need a compressor, but you should at least appreciate why many bass players use them live.  

I am not speaking as a compressor ‘fanboy’, but as a musician who has worked with a fair few decent players and several pro sound engineers. Frankly it’s no skin off my nose whether you choose to listen to me or not…

[Al Krow]

11 minutes ago, Kev said:

Who put 50p in this thread??

Couldn’t have put it any better! 

😂

[Osiris]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Oh and when you say: "Just about everything about the bass and bass player will go unnoticed by the average pub crowd", I'm afraid I completely disagree with that statement! But that's a whole 'nother topic!

Around 2 years ago my Helix Stomp crapped out half way through the second set of a pub gig, I've mentioned this before. The band was using IEM's at the time so I had no backline with me. It was a pretty typical pub gig, the venue itself know for its live music, not just a pub with a band up the corner. Anyway, my Stomp died and there was no bass signal for the last half a dozen songs. You could count on no fingers the number of people who stopped dancing.

Not one. 

I got some hand signals from a guy who was indicating that he couldn't hear the bass but other than that nobody else appeared to notice. The guy spoke to me after we'd finished playing and it turned out he was another bass player. 

At best you're a guitarist in the band as far as almost every punter is concerned. 

Don't believe me? At the next gig you do stop playing half way through a song and see how many of the audience notice. Report back here with your findings.

[Al Krow]

22 minutes ago, Kev said:

Who put 50p in this thread??

And still it goes on, and on, and on... 

Must have been one of those old 50p coins ..😂

[51m0n]

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

And still it goes on, and on, and on... 

Must have been one of those old 50p coins ..😂

Haven't you got some sound engineering homework to be getting on with?

[Al Krow]

1 minute ago, 51m0n said:

Haven't you got some sound engineering homework to be getting on with?

Haha, very good. 

Been too busy fending off requests from my esteemed comp fan boy BCers to borrow my Becos Stella, now that it's been off boarded ahead of band rehearsals starting up again. 

That and looking down the back of the sofa for some more old 50p coins. 

Isn't it about time you laid into one knob compressors with no metering as being the spawn of the devil? 😉

[51m0n]

8 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Haha, very good. 

Been too busy fending off requests from my esteemed comp fan boy BCers to borrow my Becos Stella, now that it's been off boarded ahead of band rehearsals starting up again. 

That and looking down the back of the sofa for some more old 50p coins. 

Isn't it about time you laid into one knob compressors with no metering as being the spawn of the devil? 😉

I don't need to, it is legend on here....

[Al Krow]

18 hours ago, Osiris said:

Around 2 years ago my Helix Stomp crapped out half way through the second set of a pub gig, I've mentioned this before. The band was using IEM's at the time so I had no backline with me. It was a pretty typical pub gig, the venue itself know for its live music, not just a pub with a band up the corner. Anyway, my Stomp died and there was no bass signal for the last half a dozen songs. You could count on no fingers the number of people who stopped dancing.

Not one. 

I got some hand signals from a guy who was indicating that he couldn't hear the bass but other than that nobody else appeared to notice. The guy spoke to me after we'd finished playing and it turned out he was another bass player. 

At best you're a guitarist in the band as far as almost every punter is concerned. 

Don't believe me? At the next gig you do stop playing half way through a song and see how many of the audience notice. Report back here with your findings.

Ah you say you were using IEMs that explains it...say no more! 

[Was just joshing...I thought no one would notice] 😁

Edited May 28, 2021 by Al Krow