Compressor misconceptions

[Cuzzie]

2 minutes ago, JapanAxe said:

If I use a compressor on bass it is invariably as a limiter. Either a big-box Cali76 (which actually describes itself as a ‘Limiting Amplifier’), or the COMP/LIMIT control on my EBS amp.

When I play guitar I have a completely different approach, using compression to produce obvious squash or sustain.

If I’m having a bad night playing, no amount of compression will fix that. But I can kind of understand players worrying about becoming dependent on an effect.

And that’s just it - the ability to vary what you can do and different compressors give different things depending on their components and capabilities and using it in a way to augment your needs

[Osiris]

16 hours ago, Jus Lukin said:

What I don't understand about compressors is why people get so cross about them.

I don't get cross about them but as the OP says there's a lot of misconceptions about them and some widespread misunderstanding. For example, two or three years ago there was a series of threads about compression by a certain relentless individual that were at best, being kind to said individual, as pointless as they were unhelpful. Unfortunately, threads like those just continue to perpetuate misconceptions and spread further confusion about something that a lot of people don't really understand to begin with. That's not meant to be condescending in anyway, it's just that a lot off bass players by their own admission don't really get compressors or compression. I just try to offer a balanced and reasoned counterpoint to threads like those in order to try to bring balance back to The Force. 

[Al Krow]

There's been a lot of talk from those seeking to bring balance to the Force, but unfortunately little evidence. 

All it would take is for a few clips to be posted demonstrating how transparent (so as to strip out the effect of their colouration) pedal board comps improve the bass sound in a live mix e.g. at a pub gig with no sound engineer doing his stuff. Just play a couple of tracks with your comp on and a couple of tracks without and let's hear what all the fuss is about?

As one of the Jedi's mates rightly often says and with wisdom, I might add, sound clips can be worth a thousand words. And it's not a big ask really, particularly as there have been several requests going in the other direction to the said individual who has often obliged (more fool him, eh?).

Still patiently waiting...

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited March 14, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[rushbo]

17 hours ago, grandad said:

Go with whatever sounds good to you. 

This. Always this. 

[Kev]

35 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

There's been a lot of talk from those seeking to bring balance to the Force, but unfortunately little evidence. 

All it would take is for a few clips to be posted demonstrating how transparent (so as to strip out the effect of their colouration) pedal board comps improve the bass sound in a live mix e.g. at a pub gig with no sound engineer doing his stuff. Just play a couple of tracks with your comp on and a couple of tracks without and let's hear what all the fuss is about?

As one of the Jedi's mates rightly often says and with wisdom, I might add, sound clips can be worth a thousand words. And it's not a big ask really, particularly as there have been several requests going in the other direction to the said individual who has often obliged (more fool him, eh?).

Still patiently waiting...

I guess in many cases its just another part of the mixing process.  Unmixed/mastered records sounds rather different than the stems just shoved together.  One of many small changes that deliver the final product.

Aside from that, a pedal compressor is as much about feel as well.  Feeling and hearing a difference response to your string attack.  Very difficult to demonstrate that to someone with a sound clip!

Edited May 6, 2021 by Kev

[Skinnyman]

But what nobody can tell me is;

Where in the chain should the compressor go?

 

[Al Krow]

44 minutes ago, Kev said:

I guess in many cases its just another part of the mixing process.  Unmixed/mastered records sounds rather different than the stems just shoved together.  One of many small changes that deliver the final product.

Aside from that, a pedal compressor is as much about feel as well.  Feeling and hearing a difference response to your string attack.  Very difficult to demonstrate that to someone with a sound clip!

Completely agree with your first point Kev. Studio compression in the hands of an expert sound engineer makes complete sense. And similarly a sound engineer mixing a full band sound. Compressors used as limiters in the way Ped set out earlier makes a lot of sense too - it's how I have my Becos set up on my board (and also deals with items 3, 6 and 7 on krispn's useful "list of 8"). 

But hearing and feeling our live sound are not unrelated and should be something that can be recorded, just in the same way as studio mastering, and make a difference to the listener's experience. 

Unfortunately the lack of any evidence of the efficacy of pedal board compressors used in a live setting is a little deafening; it certainly doesn't mean that we're not open to it, contrary to Mr Lukin's belief. Tbf, unlike the self-proclaimed Jedi above, one of my BC buddies is happy to record a clip of the impact of PB dual band compression on his sound and, if it is decent - which he is confident it will be, I'll definitely be following him in getting one!

Edited May 6, 2021 by Al Krow

[Cuzzie]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

There's been a lot of talk from those seeking to bring balance to the Force, but unfortunately little evidence. 

All it would take is for a few clips to be posted demonstrating how transparent (so as to strip out the effect of their colouration) pedal board comps improve the bass sound in a live mix e.g. at a pub gig with no sound engineer doing his stuff. Just play a couple of tracks with your comp on and a couple of tracks without and let's hear what all the fuss is about?

As one of the Jedi's mates rightly often says and with wisdom, I might add, sound clips can be worth a thousand words. And it's not a big ask really, particularly as there have been several requests going in the other direction to the said individual who has often obliged (more fool him, eh?).

Still patiently waiting...

@Al Krow I did That for you a few years ago where part way through the song I realised the compressor was off, I clicked it on and an immediate difference was heard. This was defo a DM and possibly also in the on and off thread you started a while back. That was on a crappy phone video audio, you can therefore imagine how much better it was in the room - why?

Because it made it all gel and sit better together.

To be honest the reply from you was - there was a difference but................

 

[Kev]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Completely agree with your first point Kev. Studio compression in the hands of an expert sound engineer makes complete sense. And similarly a sound engineer mixing a full band sound. Compressors used as limiters in the way Ped set out earlier makes a lot of sense too - it's how I have my Becos set up on my board (and also deals with items 3, 6 and 7 on krispn's useful "list of 8"). 

But hearing and feeling our live sound are not unrelated and should be something that can be recorded, just in the same way as studio mastering, and make a difference to the listener's experience. 

Unfortunately the lack of any evidence of the efficacy of pedal board compressors used in a live setting is a little deafening; it certainly doesn't mean that we're not open to it, contrary to Mr Lukin's belief. Tbf, unlike the self-proclaimed Jedi above, one of my BC buddies is happy to record a clip of the impact of PB dual band compression on his sound and, if it is decent - which he is confident it will be, I'll definitely be following him in getting one!

Live setting, it really is a simple as sticking a compressor on your board, setting it accordingly, and using it for a few weeks etc, then stop using it.  I'd be amazed if you didn't notice a reasonably significant difference in the tone response to your playing and your spot in the mix.

[Cuzzie]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Completely agree with your first point Kev. Studio compression in the hands of an expert sound engineer makes complete sense. And similarly a sound engineer mixing a full band sound. Compressors used as limiters in the way Ped set out earlier makes a lot of sense too - it's how I have my Becos set up on my board (and also deals with items 3, 6 and 7 on krispn's useful "list of 8"). 

But hearing and feeling our live sound are not unrelated and should be something that can be recorded, just in the same way as studio mastering, and make a difference to the listener's experience. 

Unfortunately the lack of any evidence of the efficacy of pedal board compressors used in a live setting is a little deafening; it certainly doesn't mean that we're not open to it, contrary to Mr Lukin's belief. Tbf, unlike the self-proclaimed Jedi above, one of my BC buddies is happy to record a clip of the impact of PB dual band compression on his sound and, if it is decent - which he is confident it will be, I'll definitely be following him in getting one!

Question then.

Do you have a sound engineer mixing your band when you play mainly?

If it’s just your Heath and Allen Mixing desk you use who balances the sound when you use your own PA?

What is the compressor type and it’s abilities on your desk and do you use it on all channels/instruments etc?

[Al Krow]

5 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

@Al Krow I did That for you a few years ago where part way through the song I realised the compressor was off, I clicked it on and an immediate difference was heard. This was defo a DM and possibly also in the on and off thread you started a while back. That was on a crappy phone video audio, you can therefore imagine how much better it was in the room - why?

Because it made it all gel and sit better together.

To be honest the reply from you was - there was a difference but................

Yup, dear fella, you did and all credit to you for that one! The "but" was it didn't sound too different to a slight volume boost! But be great if you are happy to share the clip here as it's exactly the sort of evidence that is actually useful in this discussion and I suspect would be of interest to more than just yours truly (aka Sith Lord, apparently 😁).

2 minutes ago, Kev said:

Live setting, it really is a simple as sticking a compressor on your board, setting it accordingly, and using it for a few weeks etc, then stop using it.  I'd be amazed if you didn't notice a reasonably significant difference in the tone response to your playing and your spot in the mix.

Yeah fair enough Kev and I think that's well understood. I think the point is a LOT of folk have done exactly this over the years and not found any difference. Bear in mind from a live player's perspective they should be wearing a decent set of ear plugs if they value their hearing and the same for your band mates. So perhaps the better test would be whether someone in the audience specifically listening out for the bass line could notice it. And that's where a few half decent recordings would be really useful. 

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited March 14, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Kev]

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

Yup, dear fella, you did and all credit to you for that one! The "but" was it didn't sound too different to a slight volume boost! But be great if you are happy to share the clip here as it's exactly the sort of evidence that is actually useful in this discussion and I suspect would be of interest to more than just yours truly (aka Sith Lord, apparently 😁).

Yeah fair enough Kev and I think that's well understood. I think the point is a LOT of folk have done exactly this over the years and not found any difference. Bear in mind from a live player's perspective they should be wearing a decent set of ear plugs if they value their hearing and the same for your band mates. So perhaps the better test would be whether someone in the audience specifically listening out for the bass line could notice it. And that's where a few half decent recordings would be really useful. 

Again though, I’m commenting more about feel than specifically tone, reaction to playing dynamics, attack etc.  There is no chance in hell a punter is going to notice that! It just means more to some bassists than others, and that’s absolutely fine 🙂

[Cuzzie]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Completely agree with your first point Kev. Studio compression in the hands of an expert sound engineer makes complete sense. And similarly a sound engineer mixing a full band sound. Compressors used as limiters in the way Ped set out earlier makes a lot of sense too - it's how I have my Becos set up on my board (and also deals with items 3, 6 and 7 on krispn's useful "list of 8"). 

But hearing and feeling our live sound are not unrelated and should be something that can be recorded, just in the same way as studio mastering, and make a difference to the listener's experience. 

Unfortunately the lack of any evidence of the efficacy of pedal board compressors used in a live setting is a little deafening; it certainly doesn't mean that we're not open to it, contrary to Mr Lukin's belief. Tbf, unlike the self-proclaimed Jedi above, one of my BC buddies is happy to record a clip of the impact of PB dual band compression on his sound and, if it is decent - which he is confident it will be, I'll definitely be following him in getting one!

@Al Krow Just to follow up on the compressors as limiters, or just a limiter as a decent use as opposed to a pedal compression live, and popping a few things together from posts you have made.

You often say it is there to protect your speaker cones form unwanted volume spikes.

Please can I ask what kind of volume are you playing at to make the cones to practically fart out?
You have high quality gear that could and can be pushed quite hard - if it’s not being pushed do you need a limiter at all?

Also (and there is nothing wrong with it) you proudly go bass - amp - cab on gigs, no pedals.  The pedal board is at home.
Are you playing at a higher volume at home as opposed on a gig which needs you to have a limiter on your signal? Even using filters/synth at home etc. Is it at such a volume to rag the cones?

Wouldnt it make more sense to protect the gigging cab?

Just interested.

[Cuzzie]

5 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Yup, dear fella, you did and all credit to you for that one! The "but" was it didn't sound too different to a slight volume boost! But be great if you are happy to share the clip here as it's exactly the sort of evidence that is actually useful in this discussion and I suspect would be of interest to more than just yours truly (aka Sith Lord, apparently 😁).

Yeah fair enough Kev and I think that's well understood. I think the point is a LOT of folk have done exactly this over the years and not found any difference. Bear in mind from a live player's perspective they should be wearing a decent set of ear plugs if they value their hearing and the same for your band mates. So perhaps the better test would be whether someone in the audience specifically listening out for the bass line could notice it. And that's where a few half decent recordings would be really useful. 

It was set at unity gain - it just did its job

[Al Krow]

@Jus Lukin - lol!

Compression isn't rocket science: threshold, compression ratio, make up gain to compensate for compression, attack and release. Get to grips with those and you're good to go. 

But if PB compressors make a difference in a live mix, it should be a simple thing to make a recording to demonstrate. Come on gents let's hear ya! 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Al Krow
Missed off 'make up gain'!

[Al Krow]

7 minutes ago, Kev said:

Again though, I’m commenting more about feel than specifically tone, reaction to playing dynamics, attack etc.  There is no chance in hell a punter is going to notice that! It just means more to some bassists than others, and that’s absolutely fine 🙂

Bingo, no disagreement from me there 😉

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited March 14, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Osiris]

1 hour ago, Kev said:

Again though, I’m commenting more about feel than specifically tone, reaction to playing dynamics, attack etc.  There is no chance in hell a punter is going to notice that! It just means more to some bassists than others, and that’s absolutely fine 🙂

Nailed it!

@Al Krow unfortunately I am no longer in a band so cannot grant your request for audio with and without compression with other musicians, plus, I do not have a DAW for recording any clips at home. While I appreciate that this all sounds like feeble excuses you are, however, more than welcome to bring a laptop with some suitable software over (who knows, I may even offer you a cheese sandwich this time) over so that I can appease your desire. I've got a couple of different poxy pedal comps plus a few models on my Stomp that we can run through, although having been through a number of Helixes you are no doubt familiar with the various options that the Helix family has to offer. Alternatively I'm sure @Cuzzie will happily post his clip again where even though it's only a phone recording you can clearly hear him engage his compressor, although it is a might Cali Compact Bass that he's using which does have it's own magic pre-amp flavour. I think @krispn may also have some useful clips that he may be willing to share. 

But nobody is forcing anyone to use a compressor. I love them and to me the bass doesn't feel right without compression when I play, but as @Kev and @Jus Lukin have both said, far more eloquently than I have, what's going on is subtle, it's a feel thing, rather than an obvious, in your face change. No, the audience are unlikely to notice unless they're other bass players and even then they're only likely to notice if they use compression themselves. But that doesn't automatically make compressors pointless. If you don't like them or don't want to use them, that's great. Don't. But to me, compression helps my bass sound and feel more alive, it helps my sound sit better with other musicians so I'll carry on using it.  

[Al Krow]

"It's subtle, unintuitive, and rarely a night-and-day change when A/B'd. This makes the compression-proving sound clip a bit of a wild goose chase, and to worry whether an audience member could pick it out?" 

"There is no chance in hell a punter is going to notice that!"

So in conclusion - you're not going to hear it on a clip (although apparently we can on Cuzzie's?) because that's akin to chasing geese, and no audience member will ever notice whether you have a compressor or not.

 As @Kev rightly said: "...It just means more to some bassists than others, and that’s absolutely fine" or as krispn put it very eloquently earlier: 

21 hours ago, krispn said:

I’ve listened to many players and compression won’t fix bad technique, it won’t add the notes they’re choosing not to play be that a nice counterpoint which was on the original recording (and is the most interesting bass part on the song) or a fancy riff and fill up the neck. It won’t compensate for bad slap technique and it won’t disguise poor timing. An overly compressed bass tone won’t make a good player sound bad but a bad player can’t hide behind a (tastefully mixed and) compressed tone. If a compressor can aide the player in the 7 or 8 points listed above so be it but not all players value those same aspects of their tone/technique. 

I'm totally good with that! I'd best now vacate the field for the return of the Jedi 😁

[Al Krow]

8 minutes ago, Osiris said:

Nailed it!

@Al Krow unfortunately I am no longer in a band so cannot grant your request for audio with and without compression with other musicians, plus, I do not have a DAW for recording any clips at home. While I appreciate that this all sounds like feeble excuses you are, however, more than welcome to bring a laptop with some suitable software over (who knows, I may even offer you a cheese sandwich this time) over so that I can appease your desire. I've got a couple of different poxy pedal comps plus a few models on my Stomp that we can run through, although having been through a number of Helixes you are no doubt familiar with the various options that the Helix family has to offer. Alternatively I'm sure @Cuzzie will happily post his clip again where even though it's only a phone recording you can clearly hear him engage his compressor, although it is a might Cali Compact Bass that he's using which does have it's own magic pre-amp flavour. I think @krispn may also have some useful clips that he may be willing to share. 

But nobody is forcing anyone to use a compressor. I love them and to me the bass doesn't feel right without compression when I play, but as @Kev and @Jus Lukin have both said, far more eloquently than I have, what's going on is subtle, it's a feel thing, rather than an obvious, in your face change. No, the audience are unlikely to notice unless they're other bass players and even then they're only likely to notice if they use compression themselves. But that doesn't automatically make compressors pointless. If you don't like them or don't want to use them, that's great. Don't. But to me, compression helps my bass sound and feel more alive, it helps my sound sit better with other musicians so I'll carry on using it.  

Mate, if there is a cheese sandwich on offer this time, I'll be around in a flash! 😁

Shared clips on this thread would be awesome! If it can't be heard even by us BC'ers, well what's the point? That's really all I'm trying to get across.

[Kev]

Just now, Al Krow said:

"It's subtle, unintuitive, and rarely a night-and-day change when A/B'd. This makes the compression-proving sound clip a bit of a wild goose chase, and to worry whether an audience member could pick it out?" 

"There is no chance in hell a punter is going to notice that!"

So in conclusion - you're not going to hear it on a clip (although apparently we can on Cuzzie's?) because that's akin to chasing geese, and no audience member will ever notice whether you have a compressor or not.

 As @Kev rightly said: "...It just means more to some bassists than others, and that’s absolutely fine" or as krispn put it very eloquently earlier: 

I'm totally good with that! I'd best now vacate the field for the return of the Jedi 😁

You're twisting words somewhat.  An average punter probably wouldn't notice if you started playing clean bass instead of distorted bass, unless the particular track is entirely defined by that sound.  So no, clearly they aren't going to pick up on changes brought about by a compressor, and not at deafening gig levels.  Does it make a difference in a live mix?  Absolutely, otherwise I wouldn't waste my money buying and using one!  But you're right, solo'd in a sound clip even a punter would recognise the difference

[Al Krow]

Just now, Kev said:

You're twisting words somewhat.  An average punter probably wouldn't notice if you started playing clean bass instead of distorted bass, unless the particular track is entirely defined by that sound.  So no, clearly they aren't going to pick up on changes brought about by a compressor, and not at deafening gig levels.  Does it make a difference in a live mix?  Absolutely, otherwise I wouldn't waste my money buying and using one!  But you're right, solo'd in a sound clip even a punter would recognise the difference

Ok cool - back to my point: if it can't be heard even by us BC'ers, well what's the point?

Let's get some clips posted, gents. 

[Kev]

Check this out for an example of what I use a compressor for, for making music in a similar genre to Mr Getgood.  4:51 onwards.