Compressor misconceptions

[Kev]

Just now, Al Krow said:

Ok cool - back to my point: if it can't be heard even by us BC'ers, well what's the point?

Let's get some clips posted, gents. 

At this stage, I can only assume you are deliberately missing the point!  A sound clip won't demonstrate what i am talking about in any meaningful way.  Watch the video I just posted, best description I can give.

[Al Krow]

22 minutes ago, Kev said:

At this stage, I can only assume you are deliberately missing the point!  A sound clip won't demonstrate what i am talking about in any meaningful way.  Watch the video I just posted, best description I can give.

Actually there was a very useful sound clip on that video you posted at 05.47 to 06.27 where he A/B's with and without the compressor on, so thanks for sharing. That's exactly the thing it would be great to hear more of. Folk can now have a listen to the clip and make their own minds up.

I'm afraid I'm not going to stray from my simple point (and it's not directed at you specifically Kev - it's more a general one for this discussion): if we BC'ers or our audience can't hear and notice a difference then frankly there's plenty else to be focussing on (e.g. all the stuff in krispn's post). If we can and it's making a positive difference, then excellent.

I look forward to folk posting their A/B sound clips with comps on and off, particularly useful in a live mix. In the meantime, no point me commenting further - I've said my piece 😁

Edited May 6, 2021 by Al Krow

[Cuzzie]

45 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Actually there was a very useful sound clip on that video you posted at 05.47 to 06.27 where he A/B's with and without the compressor on, so thanks for sharing. That's exactly the thing it would be great to hear more of. Folk can now have a listen to the clip and make their own minds up.

I'm afraid I'm not going to stray from my simple point (and it's not directed at you specifically Kev - it's more a general one for this discussion): if we BC'ers or our audience can't hear and notice a difference then frankly there's plenty else to be focussing on (e.g. all the stuff in krispn's post). If we can and it's making a positive difference, then excellent.

I look forward to folk posting their A/B sound clips with comps on and off, particularly useful in a live mix. In the meantime, no point me commenting further - I've said my piece 😁

How about an answer about the limiter and speaker farting and mixer compression wins clips being posted?

Seems a fair trade?

Maybe you could post clips limiter on and limiter off whilst playing so we can hear the sound and view how the speakers are moving?

That would be helpful to many demonstrating your point

[Al Krow]

Soz - gonna be nothing further from me in terms of compression related clips - I'm not the one saying that "normal" (i.e. not being purely used as a limiter) pedal board compression makes a noticeable difference in a band mix.

Besides, I've posted a shed load of clips on this forum over the past few years (this week's are on the OC-5 thread); so I'm sure a few BC comp fanboys , if they really believe in the value of pedal board compression, will oblige. If there's silence on the subject, well I think that tells its own story.

As yours is already done, shouldn't take any effort to share that one for us all to have a listen to? And maybe the OP could oblige with a couple to illustrate what the misconceptions are he believes we are all suffering from?

Obliged to Kev for getting the ball rolling with that A/B comparison of compressor both bypassed and engaged from 2013. Good man. Be useful to hear a few transparent clean compressors, without the overlay of heavy dirt, in action in similar vein particularly in a band mix. But I'm not holding my breath! 😉

Edited May 6, 2021 by Al Krow

[Cuzzie]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Soz - gonna be nothing further from me in terms of compression related clips - I'm not the one saying that "normal" (i.e. not being purely used as a limiter) pedal board compression makes a noticeable difference in a band mix.

Besides, I've posted a shed load of clips on this forum over the past few years (this week's are on the OC-5 thread); so I'm sure a few BC comp fanboys , if they really believe in the value of pedal board compression, will oblige. If there's silence on the subject, well I think that tells its own story.

As yours is already done, shouldn't take any effort to share that one for us all to have a listen to? And maybe the OP could oblige with a couple to illustrate what the misconceptions are he believes we are all suffering from?

Obliged to Kev for getting the ball rolling with that A/B comparison of compressor both bypassed and engaged from 2013. Good man. Be useful to hear a few transparent clean compressors, without the overlay of heavy dirt, in action in similar vein particularly in a band mix. But I'm not holding my breath! 😉

Well that’s not entirely on the spirit of things - regardless of clips being posted or not (strange reply saying you have posted enough clips over the years considering you ask for clips and settings regularly from others) we all like to learn things. asking about the effect of your limiter and how you use it is valuable information for people who want to protect their speakers. Things like what is the volume threshold where it happens, how hot does the signal have to be, gain staging, stacking pedals and how it affects it - do your different cabs have different tolerances.

Does your mixer have a compressor on it, what type, how does it work etc.

There is a breadth of practical things that could be shared that is not just quoting spec sheets and numbers and can be useful to people, and you have some nice equipment that you could demonstrate your understanding on the subject and practicality of applying it, how you use your gear.

Surely that’s not unreasonable?

Edited May 6, 2021 by Cuzzie

[krispn]

This went up recently and does some on off comparison while actively tweaking. It's a start and by a fellow BC'er. The nuance is likely to be lost on a gig. I'm unable to record just now as I'm doing a clean up on my laptop and updating it.

[Al Krow]

@krispn cheers mate - TJS's stuff is always thoughtfully put together. What would be fantastic, when you're next at rehearsal, is if you (or anyone else!) could get a recording done "in the mix" with comp engaged and switched off - I'm sure this thread will still be "open" when your laptop has been cleaned up 😊

The nuance point you mention is, however, an important one - as we are constantly told the real benefit of the PB compression is "in the mix".

And maybe you could encourage your southern buddy to share the clip he's already done, as I'm sure everyone is bored with me and him going round in circles (again) - lol! Particularly given that it would take 30 seconds to upload and he's made a point of referencing it earlier in the thread. If I recall correctly, his band was sounding pretty good in case he's feeling shy!

[Cuzzie]

9 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

@krispn cheers mate - TJS's stuff is always thoughtfully put together. What would be fantastic, when you're next at rehearsal, is if you (or anyone else!) could get a recording done "in the mix" with comp engaged and switched off - I'm sure this thread will still be "open" when your laptop has been cleaned up 😊

The nuance point you mention is, however, an important one - as we are constantly told the real benefit of the PB compression is "in the mix".

And maybe you could encourage your southern buddy to share the clip he's already done, as I'm sure everyone is bored with me and him going round in circles (again) - lol! Particularly given that it would take 30 seconds to upload and he's made a point of referencing it earlier in the thread. If I recall correctly, his band was sounding pretty good in case he's feeling shy!

I think you forget that my work pattern denotes I don’t always have a few mins to find the video clip which is hidden somewhere in my phone as I try to finish up and get to a polling station to vote.

We could stop going in circles, but then that may involve you sharing some info....😉

[Cuzzie]

44 seconds I step on it - it’s obvious and no it’s not a volume push - it’s all at unity gain - and yes I think most will hear a difference.

 

@Al Krow I am sure you can squeeze something out for the masses clip or no clip

Edited May 6, 2021 by Cuzzie

[peteb]

1 hour ago, Cuzzie said:

44 seconds I step on it - it’s obvious and no it’s not a volume push - it’s all at unity gain - and yes I think most will hear a difference.

 

@Al Krow I am sure you can squeeze something out for the masses clip or no clip

 

For me the whole point is to help the bass cut through the mix, which I think your clip demonstrates extremely well. I have the compressor running all the time, but I will be the first to admit that I find it difficult to set it up. I ended up asking a studio engineer (who is also a gigging bass player) who uses the same compressor as me live (MXR) and he just got me to take a photo of his settings on my phone. I've never had a problem since. 

[Downunderwonder]

Isn't YouTube all compressed by YT on upload?

[krispn]

10 hours ago, Al Krow said:

@krispn cheers mate - TJS's stuff is always thoughtfully put together. What would be fantastic, when you're next at rehearsal, is if you (or anyone else!) could get a recording done "in the mix" with comp engaged and switched off - I'm sure this thread will still be "open" when your laptop has been cleaned up 😊

The nuance point you mention is, however, an important one - as we are constantly told the real benefit of the PB compression is "in the mix".

And maybe you could encourage your southern buddy to share the clip he's already done, as I'm sure everyone is bored with me and him going round in circles (again) - lol! Particularly given that it would take 30 seconds to upload and he's made a point of referencing it earlier in the thread. If I recall correctly, his band was sounding pretty good in case he's feeling shy!

Sure

[krispn]

Tried to do a quick home recording -  a track with drums, keys, guitar and bass to highlight how the compression was working in the mix with a couple of different settings and playing styles. Needless to say I've hit a stumbling block. I can get the drums and keys recorded as they're all in the DAW but I appear to be having an issue with getting sound input from my interface so no guitar or bass. Just updated the laptop so maybe that's the issue and i need to update my interface software... I have recorded the basic track so at least I can easily recall once I get it sorted. It's all I have in the meantime as we have no rehearsal planned anytime soon and no bookings on the horizon yet. I can link you to gigs where I'm using my comp but I wasn't switching it on and off mid song the same way I wasn't switching my drive on and off mid song.

Anyhow on this recording I attempted this morning I can hear an audible difference in the mix and while this may not translate to a live gig I prefer playing the parts with my compressor engaged. I like how the feel of the playing changes and if I'm trying to do pseudo upright sounds on the short scale or playing tight pick style punk I can tweak the comp to suit my needs to make it bloom or nice and tight sounding. On a gig, much like my dirt, I have it set to cover the majority of what I'm playing. I don't feel the need to have a different comp setting for each song as has been suggested earlier.  I also mixed drum stems from ages ago in that choir gig and compression really brought the room mic's to life and as I think I mentioned before using this sort of practice on mixes really lets the understanding of compression blossom in it's various uses.

@Al Krow you have owned more compressor pedals than I have - I'd guess about 5 at least. Add in all the multifx pedals (which I think is about 7 if you include the 4 different occasions you've own a Line 6 device and the Zoom units) and they cover all the standard styles of compression FET, vari mu, optical etc etc. I'd include plug ins you have in your DAW but I'm pretty confident they've never been used.

As has been said over and over in many many threads on here and on TB. What one persons settings are will not directly translate into "your" set up. You gig mainly without effects pedals (you don't want to be tripping over bass lines and a pedal board) so that's cool. You don't rate the use of compression live that's cool. @Kev sent a clip and you heard a difference @Cuzzie sent you a clip and you heard a difference. Your opinion is only likely to shift if you do this for yourself and hear something. The 8 points I listed earlier were from FEA Labs Frank and they should the many uses of compression. You may feel none of them apply to you or you may be interested to try them out.

You have access to the gear to do this on/off experiment for yourself... with your band... with your gear... at the venues where it will (or will not) make a difference to your sound. I was re-listening to footage from The Century Club gigs on the Sector thread. Why not bring a comp next time you play there when the back line is all taken care of or BoxPark  - venues you already have footage from where you can compare if it works for you.

It's like if I gave you my eq settings for a P bass and you only ever tried them out in isolation as home you'd lose the quality of those setting by not hearing them in context. What might sound overly mid forward in isolation could really work in a band setting and what might sound like a great smiley face eq curve at home could see you totally lost in a live setting.

If you really are so inquisitive about settings and rigs - who plays what bass, through what pedal ,through what amp what is the end goal of this inquisition - a spread sheet of cut and paste replies to other peoples posts? Practical knowledge to be applied on a gig? You will have your own motivations as we all do. I've just seen many posts by you which all go the same way- What settings what settings what settings.

 

[krispn]

P.S.

I'm happy to send the basic track if you wish to use it for your own experimentation.

[Al Krow]

@krispn - cheers for taking the to time write that lengthy post for us. Certainly no need to personalise this as I'm actually not looking for any particular guidance or input - I've had plenty! But thanks for your very kind offer - it's appreciated. FWIW my focus these days is much more addressing all the other stuff you rightly mentioned in your excellent earlier post; with gear being an enjoyable & fun distraction rather than the main event - although I do still end up getting suckered into thread re-treads such as this, lol!

My challenge (and apologies for continuing to repeat it), in the context of this thread, is for folk who are finding compression works well to share what that actually sounds like, as a couple have already kindly done. I get that it will be tailored to their own set up. Others can then make up their own mind whether what they are hearing is going to be useful for them or not in one of the eight areas you outlined earlier, plus the more limiter focus that ped shared.

And if we get a few more clips to add to the ones we already have, this thread could very possibly end up being one of the most useful compression threads ever! 😊

Edited May 7, 2021 by Al Krow
Usual grammar and typos!

[krispn]

One of the main things that people talk about with a good compressor or a really nice drive pedal is how the ‘feel’ changes and they’re often at a loss to quantify that.

If you boost 800Hz on a bass eq you’re likely gonna get a repeatable result, broadly. In understanding you’re asking for each player with their individual technique so show where they have found the sweet spot it has been repeated compression doesn’t always have to be a big apparent effect. We’ve been over this with HPF/LPF where you only heard it working when it was doing too much and dismissed it as not for you before going down the rabbit hole, discussing a custom built pedal etc etc. 

What Nolly or @Kev or any the rest of us get out of using a compressor might not be translatable in a iPhone recording. I can hear the guitarist in my band’s guitar and frankly I think it’s over compressed but he’s a bit cack handed so probably best to stop his picking style sound like a fish flapping about for air on a river bank. 

If you heard 20 clips where a comp made an audible difference would you start using a compressor live? If yes then why? 
You’re working on developing your slap chops. Do you use a compressor when practicing to even things out?

[Cuzzie]

46 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

@krispn - cheers for taking the to time write that lengthy post for us. Certainly no need to personalise this as I'm actually not looking for any particular guidance or input - I've had plenty! But thanks for your very kind offer - it's appreciated. FWIW my focus these days is much more addressing all the other stuff you rightly mentioned in your excellent earlier post; with gear being an enjoyable & fun distraction rather than the main event - although I do still end up getting suckered into thread re-treads such as this, lol!

My challenge (and apologies for continuing to repeat it), in the context of this thread, is for folk who are finding compression works well to share what that actually sounds like, as a couple have already kindly done. I get that it will be tailored to their own set up. Others can then make up their own mind whether what they are hearing is going to be useful for them or not in one of the eight areas you outlined earlier, plus the more limiter focus that ped shared.

And if we get a few more clips to add to the ones we already have, this thread could very possibly end up being one of the most useful compression threads ever! 😊

Knowledge sharing is definitely a good thing for many people I agree, I and others defo interested n that limiter stuff specific to your set up ......😉

[peteb]

2 hours ago, krispn said:

One of the main things that people talk about with a good compressor or a really nice drive pedal is how the ‘feel’ changes and they’re often at a loss to quantify that.

If you boost 800Hz on a bass eq you’re likely gonna get a repeatable result, broadly. In understanding you’re asking for each player with their individual technique so show where they have found the sweet spot it has been repeated compression doesn’t always have to be a big apparent effect. We’ve been over this with HPF/LPF where you only heard it working when it was doing too much and dismissed it as not for you before going down the rabbit hole, discussing a custom built pedal etc etc. 

What Nolly or @Kev or any the rest of us get out of using a compressor might not be translatable in a iPhone recording. I can hear the guitarist in my band’s guitar and frankly I think it’s over compressed but he’s a bit cack handed so probably best to stop his picking style sound like a fish flapping about for air on a river bank. 

If you heard 20 clips where a comp made an audible difference would you start using a compressor live? If yes then why? 
You’re working on developing your slap chops. Do you use a compressor when practicing to even things out?

I tend to think of a compressor as an utility pedal, rather than an effect. I think that a lot of people have a problem with paying £150 for a pedal that you only notice when you turn it off! 

I never use a comp when I'm playing at home, but have it running all the time whenever there's a drummer in the room. The whole point of it (for the way I use it) is to use sparingly, be as transparent as possible, tighten up your sound and make you sound a bit more 'professional' (for want of a better word). 

[SumOne]

I've found with some compression that you can't necessarily hear a tone difference with it on/off but you can feel the difference when you are the one playing. e.g. Pluck a string a bit too hard and it sounds more of a similar volume to the other notes you played than if you had the compressor off.....that's not something you can tell from listening to a YouTube comparison but it's something you can feel when playing. 

Also, there are different types of compressors and the way they are used. e.g. The MXR M87 is good for making the output more even while not changing the tone, the Pigtronix Philosopher Bass is good at adding sustain, the FEA Opti-FET is good at fattening up and adding a sort of warm/softened tone.

Edited May 7, 2021 by SumOne

[SumOne]

On 06/05/2021 at 12:34, Skinnyman said:

But what nobody can tell me is;

Where in the chain should the compressor go?

 

I'm too tight to get two so it's at the end but in an ideal world I'd have one at the start and one at the end and use each/both/none depending on other pedals being used..... I like to go from octave pedal into envelope filter but my octave pedal tracks better with a compressor before it whereas my envelope filter sounds best with a compressor after it to tame some harsh peaks. 

[Phil Starr]

Glad we are back on track.

I've always played without any fx,  just the sound of the bass. Not because it's a religion but because my bass playing is fairly basic and I was always running the PA. I didn't need any extra distractions on stage. When I've had compressors built into amps I've tried them and ended up switching them out. I've always found they've done very little or they completely crushed the dynamics of playing. I've always assumed fx would add a little to my sound but without being able to hear what the audience hear out front the combination of  factors has put me off starting to climb the learning curve.

Lockdown has changed that. I've been playing music with a mate on Soundtrap. It's a kind of very simple online DAW I guess. Crucially it records everything clean and you can add fx later. That's let me try the effects of a couple of the compression fx they provide and instantly hear what they do in the mix. It makes a difference, quite a big one and it makes things better.

I've never been bothered by my on stage sound, I can always hear the bass, hearing what the rest of the band are up to is more of a problem. I came to bass late after mixing live for years and I have a healthy disrespect for musicians who put 'their' sound in front of the band's sound.

So I'm following this with interest, I know what I want to achieve and some sort of compression is the way to do it Come on guys go nerdy on me. I want to know what changing the attack and release times really does to the sound. What ratios are best for metal, can I set things so dynamics are secured but presence is increased and yes, where should compression go in the chain?

[Cuzzie]

7 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

Glad we are back on track.

I've always played without any fx,  just the sound of the bass. Not because it's a religion but because my bass playing is fairly basic and I was always running the PA. I didn't need any extra distractions on stage. When I've had compressors built into amps I've tried them and ended up switching them out. I've always found they've done very little or they completely crushed the dynamics of playing. I've always assumed fx would add a little to my sound but without being able to hear what the audience hear out front the combination of  factors has put me off starting to climb the learning curve.

Lockdown has changed that. I've been playing music with a mate on Soundtrap. It's a kind of very simple online DAW I guess. Crucially it records everything clean and you can add fx later. That's let me try the effects of a couple of the compression fx they provide and instantly hear what they do in the mix. It makes a difference, quite a big one and it makes things better.

I've never been bothered by my on stage sound, I can always hear the bass, hearing what the rest of the band are up to is more of a problem. I came to bass late after mixing live for years and I have a healthy disrespect for musicians who put 'their' sound in front of the band's sound.

So I'm following this with interest, I know what I want to achieve and some sort of compression is the way to do it Come on guys go nerdy on me. I want to know what changing the attack and release times really does to the sound. What ratios are best for metal, can I set things so dynamics are secured but presence is increased and yes, where should compression go in the chain?

Welcome to the world!!!

So far as the chain goes, there is no hard and fast, but will also depend on anything else you are playing with - for example with a filter pedal if you have it before and you squash your sound too much you may lose it’s ability to form a squelchy sound to open that envelope.

If you use an octave pedal it may be better before to make it a tighter signal for tracking.

You may want one at the start and end of chain, first can even the attack out, a load of pedals doing whatever, then re balance at the end.

No hard and fast, but what is right for you.

As for setting your compression up, TJ’s video wasn’t bad on explanation posted earlier.

Have a listen to this

If you (not pointing at anyone) can’t hear the benefit and alteration to the sound you want to achieve by compression here then you have cloth ears, and further more if you can’t see how it would be applied in a live situation then that’s crass I am afraid.

I am fully with you about not putting a sound before other instruments - it’s a recipe with ingredients to be blended - compression is there to help and stop you slipping with the salt to ruin the flavour

[krispn]

@Phil Starr If this clip hasn't already jumped to 2.28 forward it to hear a brief explanation and some audio mentioning use of compression. It's not simply specific to this pedal used in the demonstration - compression is compression. Rack and plug in compression may have traditionally had more features over older pedal variants but pedal compressors now come as feature laden as many of the older rack and studio units they're based on and inspired by.

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by krispn

[krispn]

1 hour ago, Cuzzie said:

Welcome to the world!!!

So far as the chain goes, there is no hard and fast, but will also depend on anything else you are playing with - for example with a filter pedal if you have it before and you squash your sound too much you may lose it’s ability to form a squelchy sound to open that envelope.

If you use an octave pedal it may be better before to make it a tighter signal for tracking.

You may want one at the start and end of chain, first can even the attack out, a load of pedals doing whatever, then re balance at the end.

No hard and fast, but what is right for you.

As for setting your compression up, TJ’s video wasn’t bad on explanation posted earlier.

Have a listen to this

If you (not pointing at anyone) can’t hear the benefit and alteration to the sound you want to achieve by compression here then you have cloth ears, and further more if you can’t see how it would be applied in a live situation then that’s crass I am afraid.

I am fully with you about not putting a sound before other instruments - it’s a recipe with ingredients to be blended - compression is there to help and stop you slipping with the salt to ruin the flavour

Mix Jesus does it again!

 

[BadHands]

I find the discussion around bass compression fascinating. Is it a case of the Emporer's new clothes, or just passionate players enjoying majoring in the minors of tone control? 

The only thing that irks me about it all is when I see people getting recommended compressors as a first pedal.