Compressor misconceptions

[nilebodgers]

3 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

A lot of truth in that Kev! And maybe why the topic remains so controversial?

For example, I was having a listen to this generally decent gear review of the Boss BC1-X and he recommends a setting for live use (for all the reasons that others have given during the course of this thread) at 6.29+ onwards. He plays both without (7.17) and with the comp (7.29). It's really easy to hear the difference, but personally I so much prefer the uncompressed tone which let's the playing dynamics breathe. Maybe others prefer the compressed tone and maybe it's better in the mix, but the starting point is a singularly unattractive one tonally for me. 

 

Yes, you are right - he went too far with those settings and it has squashed it too much. I didn't watch the bit where he discussed the parameters used, but it sounds to me like the attack was set too fast so none of the transients come through.

[Cuzzie]

A slight aside but for me I would like to highlight where I think something is overly compressed and processed - love both songs

Same band

Few years apart

 

overly compressed

 

Original back in the days

remastered and changed....

Granted it’s via poo tube, but I don’t know if everyone has spotify or whatever.

There are subtle differences but I prefer the raw-est sound 

 

Granted the original was Muzz and the recent Doug

Edited May 10, 2021 by Cuzzie

[ped]

35 minutes ago, nilebodgers said:

Yes, you are right - he went too far with those settings and it has squashed it too much. I didn't watch the bit where he discussed the parameters used, but it sounds to me like the attack was set too fast so none of the transients come through.

Nothing wrong with a fast attack, he set the threshold too low by the sounds of it! 

To me the perfect setting is a HIGH threshold and fast attack with a high ratio, so that dynamics are unaffected but when you really dig in you sometimes hit the limiter giving a really nice 'front line' and consistent level. I really don't like the seasick volume swelling compressor settings which you tend to hear. I've also sold loads of compressors because the attack isn't fast enough so it's more obvious when the limiter hits.

[Al Krow]

33 minutes ago, nilebodgers said:

Yes, you are right - he went too far with those settings and it has squashed it too much. I didn't watch the bit where he discussed the parameters used, but it sounds to me like the attack was set too fast so none of the transients come through.

Agreed with the end result. 

The comp settings he uses are at 6.29. These show release at a touch over 5/10 and ratio at 5/10 

I guess that would equate to a compression ratio of 4:1 although there's nothing in the manual which discloses the max compression, so it's that's a bit of a guess (I've made an assumption of max comp around 20:1 which is not atypical).

The release is at mid point so not overly fast, which I think is your key and important point regarding the transients (but again very little info in the manual about interaction between attack and release for this pedal).

[ped]

This kind of sums up the way a comp helps - listen to the before and after. After doesn't sound squished at all, but it stops those low notes from distorting and overpowering

Should start at 1:53, the other samples are a bit poor. Interestingly when he uses the MXR the attack is set too low so you still get those distorted peaks... but the guy at 2:49 has sorted that and cranked the attack which is how I use the M87 too except I squish much less of the signal overall.

 

[Al Krow]

Look forward to checking that out Ped.

On the PG Review clip I posted above, this statement of his has gotta get some sort of prize?

At 2.25 he says "the unique thing about this compressor pedal is that you can't get a bad compressor tone. Some of those compressors out there you can squash it completely gone" 

I think we're in agreement that he then proceeds to squash the life out of it at 7.29. The irony eh? Still, I guess he's only managed to influence 100,000 viewers so far...😂

[nilebodgers]

The irony of all this is the FOH engineer at a decent size gig would completely ignore a pedal compressor anyway. The channel strip compression facilities on any decent digital desk runs rings round any of these pedals.

[peteb]

15 minutes ago, nilebodgers said:

The irony of all this is the FOH engineer at a decent size gig would completely ignore a pedal compressor anyway. The channel strip compression facilities on any decent digital desk runs rings round any of these pedals.

But they could only do that if they take a DI straight from your bass, thus completely taking out your pedalboard. They could ask you to turn your PB compressor off, but I have yet to be asked to do this. 

If you can control your signal to the FOH engineer then you can make his job easier / quicker and still maintain some control over your FOH sound. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by peteb

[Cuzzie]

16 minutes ago, nilebodgers said:

The irony of all this is the FOH engineer at a decent size gig would completely ignore a pedal compressor anyway. The channel strip compression facilities on any decent digital desk runs rings round any of these pedals.

I don’t disagree, but if it is in the chain before they get there signal surely it’s not unpicked and ignored?

Edited May 10, 2021 by Cuzzie
Same time as PeteB

[peteb]

25 minutes ago, nilebodgers said:

The irony of all this is the FOH engineer at a decent size gig would completely ignore a pedal compressor anyway. The channel strip compression facilities on any decent digital desk runs rings round any of these pedals.

I think that this also demonstrates that a good FOH engineer will add compression at a big gig if you haven't already done so yourself. To get the same quality of sound at a smaller gig with no experienced engineer at the desk, then the onus is on you to sort out what compression should be on the bass. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by peteb

[Osiris]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

For example, I was having a listen to this generally decent gear review of the Boss BC1-X and he recommends a setting for live use (for all the reasons that others have given during the course of this thread) at 6.29+ onwards. He plays both without (7.17) and with the comp (7.29). It's really easy to hear the difference, but personally I so much prefer the uncompressed tone which let's the playing dynamics breathe. Maybe others prefer the compressed tone and maybe it's better in the mix, but the starting point is a singularly unattractive one tonally for me. 

 

I feel dirty and ashamed for saying this but I'll say it anyway...

@Al Krow I actually agree with you on this. There, I said it. .

As much as I usually enjoy Steve Cook's Premier Guitar vids, he doesn't really do that Boss comp justice in that video. At the time points you mentioned it is very squashed sounding - although in respect to the comment you made about him managing to get a bad sound out of it when he said it was impossible, you need to remember he's playing a very hot 18V bass through it so he's hitting the threshold a lot harder than you would with a 'normal' bass, which is what is causing the excessively squashed sound at times. It's this amount of audible squash, where you can very obviously here the compression working, that people complain about compression killing their dynamics.   

The Bass Gear Review video, below, shows off the pedal - and therefore compression - in a much more positive light, IMO. Just about every playing style is covered and in almost all of them you can hear the effect of the compression when the pedal is engaged, the bass sounds more refined, controlled and more even while in most cases the dynamics are still retained. Pay particular attention to the jolly Frenchman at 3.53, listed to how once the pedal is kicked in at 4.02 all of a sudden there is extra definition and separation between the notes making the piece sound more... professional, for want of a better description. And that's just from listening to it through crappy laptop speakers. The Boss wasn't previously on my radar even though I love their LMB-3 Bass Limiter pedal, but I'm going to have to try the BC-1X out for myself after watching this. 

 

If anyone wants me over the next few days I'll be in the bath vigorously scrubbing myself with a wire brush and some Domestos. 

[Bunion]

Cheers guys,

I finally have some time off work to get the jobs done I’ve been putting off for months and what happens? 
I’ve spent all morning researching compression on the internet (after reading this thread last night) then the rest of the day playing with a compressor that’s sat in a box. 

There is most definitely differences to be heard.

Make a difference in a live mix? I’d say yes to those in the know 

Make a difference to the crowd of drunken punters bouncing around? I doubt it. 

But I’ve had an interesting day and have a better understanding of what each control does and how it affects the dynamic range. 
I will now be confident in changing settings and understand exactly what I’m doing and why. 

Alas the can of worms is open, a little knowledge is dangerous and now I’ve come across serial compression... 😳
 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Bunion

[Al Krow]

35 minutes ago, Osiris said:

The Boss wasn't previously on my radar even though I love their LMB-3 Bass Limiter pedal, but I'm going to have to try the BC-1X out for myself after watching this. 

Yeah I'd not really come across the Boss BC-1X before either. It's not as "posh" as some of the others (e.g. Cali 76) or as simple to use as some of the "one-knobs" (e.g. Spectracomp) which seem to get more air time on this forum.

A BC mate has recently got one and took the trouble to record and share a short clip a couple of days back. Got a thumbs up from two of us listening and a thumbs down from a third - which I guess just emphasises Kev's point about folk hearing things differently; a point which undoubtedly also extends to our audiences in terms of what they like or don't.

But he's loving it and, frankly if it's working for him and making him feel happier about his sound, then fantastic. What more can any of us ask from our gear?

Ooops...didn't you say something very similar about your own use of comps in one of your earlier posts in this thread?

Best pass that Domestos...

[JohnDaBass]

1 hour ago, Osiris said:

 

If anyone wants me over the next few days I'll be in the bath vigorously scrubbing myself with a wire brush and some Domestos. 

I have a sack cloth tabard, that has been soaked in goats milk and hanging out in the sun for the past week, that you are welcome to wear when you surface for the bath dowsed in Domestos. I'm sure your penance will be enjoyed by all!

[Osiris]

20 minutes ago, JohnDaBass said:

I have a sack cloth tabard, that has been soaked in goats milk and hanging out in the sun for the past week, that you are welcome to wear when you surface for the bath dowsed in Domestos. I'm sure your penance will be enjoyed by all!

Sounds perfect, I'll keep an eye and nose out for the post man over the next few days. 

[Cuzzie]

1 hour ago, Osiris said:

Sounds perfect, I'll keep an eye and nose out for the post man over the next few days. 

The smell could be me visiting 

[mcnach]

On 08/05/2021 at 09:00, Cuzzie said:

Welcome to the world!!!

So far as the chain goes, there is no hard and fast, but will also depend on anything else you are playing with - for example with a filter pedal if you have it before and you squash your sound too much you may lose it’s ability to form a squelchy sound to open that envelope.

If you use an octave pedal it may be better before to make it a tighter signal for tracking.

You may want one at the start and end of chain, first can even the attack out, a load of pedals doing whatever, then re balance at the end.

No hard and fast, but what is right for you.

As for setting your compression up, TJ’s video wasn’t bad on explanation posted earlier.

Have a listen to this

If you (not pointing at anyone) can’t hear the benefit and alteration to the sound you want to achieve by compression here then you have cloth ears, and further more if you can’t see how it would be applied in a live situation then that’s crass I am afraid.

I am fully with you about not putting a sound before other instruments - it’s a recipe with ingredients to be blended - compression is there to help and stop you slipping with the salt to ruin the flavour

 

Fantastic video, thank you for posting it!

[MGBrown]

Quite agree. He explains things very well! I'll be checking out his other material.

[Cuzzie]

30 minutes ago, MGBrown said:

Quite agree. He explains things very well! I'll be checking out his other material.

Honestly I’ve listened to a load of his stuff and it’s trance like and very informative - he is not a guy to leave alone with your wife, she would defo run off with him!

[BadHands]

7 hours ago, Cuzzie said:

Granted the original was Muzz and the recent Doug

I had no idea Doug didn't originally do COP.. You know what they say about assumptions

[Cuzzie]

23 minutes ago, BadHands said:

I had no idea Doug didn't originally do COP.. You know what they say about assumptions

You assuming I know what they say.....?!

I Love Living Colour and Doug Wimbish (he has a pedal or 2!) but Times up and Vivid with Muzz Skillings playing is just out of this world bass wise. When you get to Stain you start seeing a slight move in direction which is still good - but I love Muzz.

They are still awesome live and Doug sounds great with good old Trace elliot

Edited May 10, 2021 by Cuzzie

[Baloney Balderdash]

The TC Electronic SpectraComp does not act like a limiter, it acts exactly according to how you dial it in in the Toneprint editor, making it one of the most flexible and dare I say greatest compressors out there.

That is unless you ignore it's biggest strength and just stick to the stock toneprint.

Admittedly non of the premade templates or artist toneprints for this pedal was to my liking, but bothering to actually thoroughly dial in my setting exactly to how I liked them using the Toneprint editor got me just that, a compressor that sounded exactly like I wanted it to.

I am extremely satisfied with mine.

You could claim just about every pedal on the market to be absolute RUBBISH if you refuse to use 90% of the adjustable parameters it offers, that however is on you, not the pedal.

Though I agree the EHX Black Finger is great too, but for completely different reasons.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Baloney Balderdash

[stewblack]

Very good points @Baloney Balderdash with reference to the toneprint capabilities.

My problem is laziness really. I must sit down with an uncluttered evening and go through the software. Especially now I know I can ask you if I get stuck! 

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited March 14, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Baloney Balderdash]

1 hour ago, stewblack said:

Very good points @Baloney Balderdash with reference to the toneprint capabilities.

My problem is laziness really. I must sit down with an uncluttered evening and go through the software. Especially now I know I can ask you if I get stuck! 

Well, I can try, the very basics I would be able to help with at least, but really I just adjusted parameters by qualified guessing from the little knowledge I had/have about how compression works, listened carefully and re-adjusting accordingly until it was spot on right, you know the good old trial and error approach, definitely worth the time it took though.

 

1 hour ago, Jus Lukin said:

Something I've wondered for a time- does the Toneprint software for the Spectracomp include meters, or over-threshold indication?

No.

I guess that might had been helpful to some, but to me it would have been a completely useless feature, in my opinion nothing beats actually listening when we are talking about tone. 

Adjusting, listening careful to what those adjustments does and then with a qualified guess adjust further according to what you hear.

 

Though I would wish that TC Electronic would have made a thorough guide to the toneprint editors of each their pedals, cause the very general toneprint editor guide you can download from their homepage is very lacking and frankly completely useless, in that you either already know what they are telling you or you don't have a clue about what they are talking about, and in both cases you are left absolutely no wiser about how to actually use the toneprint editor for the individual pedals.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Baloney Balderdash