OMG the Sub-Harmonic thingy actually works! - Ashdown

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='447793' date='Mar 27 2009, 11:38 PM']Dammit Claber, you are supposed to know all this.[/quote]

I'm working on omniscience but I'm concerned I'll die before I get there.

I have another thought - it's not the fundamental that is critical to tracking, it's the fundamental OR the second harmonic (octave). Where it all goes wrong is when the octaver locks onto the third harmonic (octave plus fifth).

Alex

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='447807' date='Mar 27 2009, 11:50 PM']I'm working on omniscience but I'm concerned I'll die before I get there.

I have another thought - it's not the fundamental that is critical to tracking, it's the fundamental OR the second harmonic (octave). Where it all goes wrong is when the octaver locks onto the third harmonic (octave plus fifth).

Alex[/quote]

Which is the next strongest of them then? And I guess the tremelo effect you get sometimes is when they about the same and its switching between the two?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='447813' date='Mar 27 2009, 11:57 PM']Which is the next strongest of them then? And I guess the tremelo effect you get sometimes is when they about the same and its switching between the two?[/quote]

There's a lot of uber-geekery happening over on talkbass regarding this. However some of those involved in that thread just don't seem to get that the balance of the harmonic series defines your tone, and as such when you change your tone through technique or EQ or picking a different instrument or putting different strings on it, etc etc, thus you change the balance of the harmonic series. No point showing a waterfall plot of a note unless you also have that recording to reference to.

This is quite informative: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music)"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music)[/url]

So you're ok if the octaver finds the first, second, fourth or eighth overtone but the third is a fifth, the the fifth is a major third, the sixth is a fifth and the seventh is a minor seventh. I suspect that's the warble territory.

Previously I'd been thinking that the problem analog octavers have with lower notes was similar to those MIDI systems have where it takes too long to hear enough of a wave period to determine the pitch but I'm now certain that it's all about the harmonics.

Alex

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='447829' date='Mar 28 2009, 12:13 AM']There's a lot of uber-geekery happening over on talkbass regarding this. However some of those involved in that thread just don't seem to get that the balance of the harmonic series defines your tone, and as such when you change your tone through technique or EQ or picking a different instrument or putting different strings on it, etc etc, thus you change the balance of the harmonic series. No point showing a waterfall plot of a note unless you also have that recording to reference to.

This is quite informative: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music)"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music)[/url]

So you're ok if the octaver finds the first, second, fourth or eighth overtone but the third is a fifth, the the fifth is a major third, the sixth is a fifth and the seventh is a minor seventh. I suspect that's the warble territory.

Previously I'd been thinking that the problem analog octavers have with lower notes was similar to those MIDI systems have where it takes too long to hear enough of a wave period to determine the pitch but I'm now certain that it's all about the harmonics.

Alex[/quote]

To make this easier to picture, can you fill in the gaps, or correct this? The 1st harmonic is the one you'll hear when you play an artificial harmonic over the 12th fret, its the nodal point at the center of the string. The second harmonic is the one from palying an artificial harmonic over the 5th and 24th frets. The 3rd harmonic is over the 7th fret, 1/3 of the length of the string. got some gaps to fill for the rest there.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='447832' date='Mar 28 2009, 12:22 AM']To make this easier to picture, can you fill in the gaps, or correct this? The 1st harmonic is the one you'll hear when you play an artificial harmonic over the 12th fret, its the nodal point at the center of the string. The second harmonic is the one from palying an artificial harmonic over the 5th and 24th frets. The 3rd harmonic is over the 7th fret, 1/3 of the length of the string. got some gaps to fill for the rest there.[/quote]

The first harmonic is actually the fundamental. The first overtone is the second harmonic. Semantics but quite important nevertheless!

So the 2nd harmonic is the 12 fret natural harmonic. The 3rd harmonic is the 7th fret natural harmonic. The 4th is the 5th fret harmonic. The 5th is just in front of the 4th fret (3.8). I think the 6th is just beyond the 3rd fret, the 7th in front of the 3rd and the 8th just beyond the 2nd. Just checking that on my bass, sounds about right. The 7th is rather out of tune compared to tempered pitch.

Alex

[escholl]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='447832' date='Mar 28 2009, 12:22 AM']To make this easier to picture, can you fill in the gaps, or correct this? The 1st harmonic is the one you'll hear when you play an artificial harmonic over the 12th fret, its the nodal point at the center of the string. The second harmonic is the one from palying an artificial harmonic over the 5th and 24th frets. The 3rd harmonic is over the 7th fret, 1/3 of the length of the string. got some gaps to fill for the rest there.[/quote]

It's not the string harmonic, it's the harmonic series of the note itself -- the intensity, proportion, and envelope of each of these harmonics, for each note, is what defines the tone.

In regards to tracking issues, you are both likely to be correct. I could probably take a guess at what it is exactly that is causing it but it would be purely speculation.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='escholl' post='447852' date='Mar 28 2009, 01:00 AM']It's not the string harmonic, it's the harmonic series of the note itself -- the intensity, proportion, and envelope of each of these harmonics, for each note, is what defines the tone.[/quote]

But by isolating each harmonic within the note through playing natural harmonics of the open string you can hear how the overtone series stacks up. Of particular interest is how densely the overtones start stacking as you go higher in the series.

Alex

[Clockworkwar]

Mine doesn't track really passed a low C, I mean it does a little so I would say an A.

[escholl]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='447858' date='Mar 28 2009, 01:24 AM']But by isolating each harmonic within the note through playing natural harmonics of the open string you can hear how the overtone series stacks up. Of particular interest is how densely the overtones start stacking as you go higher in the series.

Alex[/quote]

That's not really true, each string "harmonic" is not solely a fundamental, it has it's own series of harmonics. For instance, when taking the harmonic at the 12th fret, all you are doing it eliminating the harmonics to which L/2 is not a nodal point -- and keeping the ones where it is, such as 2f, 4f, 6f, 8f, etc.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='escholl' post='447978' date='Mar 28 2009, 11:27 AM']That's not really true, each string "harmonic" is not solely a fundamental, it has it's own series of harmonics. For instance, when taking the harmonic at the 12th fret, all you are doing it eliminating the harmonics to which L/2 is not a nodal point -- and keeping the ones where it is, such as 2f, 4f, 6f, 8f, etc.[/quote]

Doh! Posting whilst brain going to sleep. Good point!

Alex

[Mr. Foxen]

Bit of thread necromancy, but now I have a bass with a dimarzio model 1 at the neck, I find octavers track it really damn well.

[steve-soar]

I think Governments would listen to what a DiMarzio Model One has to say.

[iamapirate]

I have an ashdown Evo III, and on the new EVO IVs they have a foot controller for the sub-harmonics, EQ, etc. and I would definitely use it if I had a foot controller as when ever I'm doing somehing melodic ina breakdown high up the neck, it sounds really nice, but down in the first octave of a 4-string it sounds muddy

[Lifer]

[quote name='iamapirate' post='472907' date='Apr 26 2009, 08:15 PM']I have an ashdown Evo III, and on the new EVO IVs they have a foot controller for the sub-harmonics, EQ, etc. and I would definitely use it if I had a foot controller as when ever I'm doing somehing melodic ina breakdown high up the neck, it sounds really nice, but down in the first octave of a 4-string it sounds muddy [/quote]

On the back there's a section called "Mute F/S" which has two inputs called "Output" and "Sub"

Get a locking footswitch and whack it in there. Sorted.

[fekalizatorius]

Subharmonics really make my tone a lot better. I usually go with BASS and 340K at 11 o'clock and MIDDLE, 1.6K and TREBBLE at 1 o'clock, the bass eq's tone on full, compressor at 9 o'clock and subharmonics at 3 o'clock, and it sounds fantastic! Enough lows, definition with the notes and overall nice feel

Edited May 6, 2009 by fekalizatorius

[Protium]

[quote name='iamapirate' post='472907' date='Apr 26 2009, 08:15 PM']I have an ashdown Evo III, and on the new EVO IVs they have a foot controller for the sub-harmonics, EQ, etc. and I would definitely use it if I had a foot controller as when ever I'm doing somehing melodic ina breakdown high up the neck, it sounds really nice, but down in the first octave of a 4-string it sounds muddy [/quote]

RTFM