JohnDaBass Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 (edited) Does the Warwick Gnome have a MOSfet preamp just like the TC BAM 200? As the amps appear to be sourced from the same OEM/ODM surpplier I'm struggling to understand why there is a price difference. Gnome £109 BAM 200 £118 Edited October 27, 2021 by JohnDaBass Spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 The input impedance is 10Mohm so, yes it's MOSFET but that isn't really a special feature nowadays. Also not in the advertising is that there is apparently some compression built into the input stage. It's mentioned briefly in the manual that came with it and there is a bit of crunch that comes in when the signal lamp starts flashing, I've no idea how Music Tribe (Behringer/TC) work but I doubt they share components with Warwick. More likely they share the same chip set produced by a third party. The big chip manufacturers release all sorts of application notes with circuits in, including board layouts and development packs. Certainly for the power amps manufacturers use mostly what they are given. The pre amps may vary but if you squeeze gain,bass,middle, treble and master controls into the smallest possible space you are going to end up with things that look very similar even if slightly different frequencies are used in thee controls. Behringer have also been known to um... make 'tribute' amps. If I open mine up I'll take some photos if someone wants to take a BAM apart. I doubt they will sound much different as they are pretty much flat response amps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 17 minutes ago, Phil Starr said: The input impedance is 10Mohm so, yes it's MOSFET but that isn't really a special feature nowadays. Also not in the advertising is that there is apparently some compression built into the input stage. It's mentioned briefly in the manual that came with it and there is a bit of crunch that comes in when the signal lamp starts flashing, I've no idea how Music Tribe (Behringer/TC) work but I doubt they share components with Warwick. More likely they share the same chip set produced by a third party. The big chip manufacturers release all sorts of application notes with circuits in, including board layouts and development packs. Certainly for the power amps manufacturers use mostly what they are given. The pre amps may vary but if you squeeze gain,bass,middle, treble and master controls into the smallest possible space you are going to end up with things that look very similar even if slightly different frequencies are used in thee controls. Behringer have also been known to um... make 'tribute' amps. If I open mine up I'll take some photos if someone wants to take a BAM apart. I doubt they will sound much different as they are pretty much flat response amps. There's photos of the BAM200 guts elsewhere on here: Would be interesting to see how similar the Gnome is, the control layout is identical although the LEDs are positioned differently. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 Rear panel is also extremely similar: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 (edited) OK I can't resist. Eight screws later. The internal anatomy of a Gnome. Edited October 27, 2021 by Phil Starr 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 So there's the sort of generic resemblance you'd expect. The switch mode power supply at the bottom looks very similar indeed apart from the heat sink. I quite like the toroidal transformer in the BAM but the component layout looks just about identical. The power amp is very similar too, lots of detailed differences but the same architecture but that's as you'd expect. You can clearly see the two amplifier chips bolted to the finned heatsink in the Gnome and sure enough there they are again in the Bam bolted to the big bent heatsink there. They may indeed be using the same chip, I'm not so keen on that inductor on the BAM which is there for rf suppression on the output (the untidy copper winding about one third down just right of centre) it's much tidier and more substantial in the Gnome. I wouldn't say they were built in the same place though, just the same chips in very similar configurations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnDaBass Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 (edited) Well from a manufacturing point of view I would prefer to build the single board implementation of the common chipset architecture. The BAM single pcb appears to have a lower labour content. If there is a common chipset hardware architecture then the material cost is going to be close, the labour content is going to be the product cost differentiater. The Gnome has several sub assembly pcbs connected to the main pcb with ribbon cables and cable looms. The preamp is a separate sub assembly and even the input jack and headphone jack are on separate pcb boards. Generally speaking reliability can be vulnerable when multiple pcbs as plugged or soldered together. A single pcb solution offers a more robust level of reliability. A single pcb solution contributes to lower manufacturing cost as the whole of the hardware can be tested on single in circuit test rigs providing much faster feedback for the validation of the manufacturing process. Having said all that the BAM should be cheaper to produce so why are they £9 more expensive than the Gnome. ??????? Edited October 27, 2021 by JohnDaBass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atsampson Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 For further comparison, this site has internal pictures of the Trace Elliott ELF (I remember seeing pictures on here at one point but can't find them now - maybe from TheGreek?). Given that there's only centimetres of separation between mains inlet pins and pins on the front panel jacks on all three of these, I think I like the look of the TC design with the least internal wiring to flap around the best! I'm amazed the Trace one meets safety standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Phil Starr said: So there's the sort of generic resemblance you'd expect. The switch mode power supply at the bottom looks very similar indeed apart from the heat sink. I quite like the toroidal transformer in the BAM but the component layout looks just about identical. The power amp is very similar too, lots of detailed differences but the same architecture but that's as you'd expect. You can clearly see the two amplifier chips bolted to the finned heatsink in the Gnome and sure enough there they are again in the Bam bolted to the big bent heatsink there. They may indeed be using the same chip, I'm not so keen on that inductor on the BAM which is there for rf suppression on the output (the untidy copper winding about one third down just right of centre) it's much tidier and more substantial in the Gnome. I wouldn't say they were built in the same place though, just the same chips in very similar configurations. Would you say there's room to replace the jack output with a speakon? Edited October 27, 2021 by lemmywinks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnDaBass Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 4 minutes ago, lemmywinks said: Would you say there's room to swap replace the jack output with a speakon? IMHO I think its doable on the BAM, maybe more tricky on the Gnome. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 30 minutes ago, JohnDaBass said: IMHO I think its doable on the BAM, maybe more tricky on the Gnome. This is the thing that niggles me on all these nano heads, turned down an Elf locally for a bargain price because of it. They could easily put a Speakon combi socket in there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 14 hours ago, lemmywinks said: This is the thing that niggles me on all these nano heads, turned down an Elf locally for a bargain price because of it. They could easily put a Speakon combi socket in there. A combi socket would be nice. I grew up on jacks and really don't mind using them on something that is relatively low powered, You can also buy jack to Speakon adaptors and I have one in the gig bag I my Gnome is in so I can use a jack/jack lead and still connect to a more conventional cab. I don't find it a problem. I've screwed my amp back together so can't help you with advice but most sockets are wired to the boards directly making a socket swap problematic. Is this an aesthetic thing for you or a worry about current handling? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 18 minutes ago, Phil Starr said: A combi socket would be nice. I grew up on jacks and really don't mind using them on something that is relatively low powered, You can also buy jack to Speakon adaptors and I have one in the gig bag I my Gnome is in so I can use a jack/jack lead and still connect to a more conventional cab. I don't find it a problem. I've screwed my amp back together so can't help you with advice but most sockets are wired to the boards directly making a socket swap problematic. Is this an aesthetic thing for you or a worry about current handling? It's more just a "why do bass amps still have just 1/4" jacks in 2021" thing tbh, especially as it does lok like there's room for a Speakon in both of those. Maybe it's not just the cost saving of the 1/4" jack itself but also cheaper for it as much to be surface mount as possible. I can imagine if margins are tight then it might not be viable for a daughter board or soldering wires. I'd happily pay £10 more for that capability though. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 58 minutes ago, lemmywinks said: It's more just a "why do bass amps still have just 1/4" jacks in 2021" thing tbh, especially as it does lok like there's room for a Speakon in both of those. Maybe it's not just the cost saving of the 1/4" jack itself but also cheaper for it as much to be surface mount as possible. I can imagine if margins are tight then it might not be viable for a daughter board or soldering wires. I'd happily pay £10 more for that capability though. The marginal cost of a combi that would keep us all happy isn't that great but Neutrik would want their cut I guess and £10 on a £120 amp is significant. You'd think that Trace would want to distance themselves from their much cheaper competitors though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obrienp Posted October 28, 2021 Author Share Posted October 28, 2021 1 hour ago, lemmywinks said: It's more just a "why do bass amps still have just 1/4" jacks in 2021" thing tbh, especially as it does lok like there's room for a Speakon in both of those. Maybe it's not just the cost saving of the 1/4" jack itself but also cheaper for it as much to be surface mount as possible. I can imagine if margins are tight then it might not be viable for a daughter board or soldering wires. I'd happily pay £10 more for that capability though. I agree with the sentiment, plus my Gnome is my backup amp. My main amp for gigs is an Orange Terror 500 that has 2 x Speakon sockets, which I use to connect two cabs. In order to have my Gnome as standby, I need to remember to pack a jack to speakon cable in addition to the two speakon to speakon cables. If I ever have to do a hot swap during a gig, I will need to unplug one cable, plug in the jack to speakon and reconfigure the cabinet cables so that they are daisy chained rather than coming straight out of the back of the amp. That’s a lot of faffing about under time pressure, possibly in poor lighting and often cramped conditions. Admittedly I could configure the cabinets to be daisy chained out of the Terror but given it has 2 speaker outlets, I am inclined to think there must be a reason for that, so I use them both. It would be great if the Gnome had speakon out (even a combi). That way the hot swap would just involve kettle lead and one speakon lead out of the Terror. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 6 hours ago, Obrienp said: I agree with the sentiment, plus my Gnome is my backup amp. My main amp for gigs is an Orange Terror 500 that has 2 x Speakon sockets, which I use to connect two cabs. In order to have my Gnome as standby, I need to remember to pack a jack to speakon cable in addition to the two speakon to speakon cables. If I ever have to do a hot swap during a gig, I will need to unplug one cable, plug in the jack to speakon and reconfigure the cabinet cables so that they are daisy chained rather than coming straight out of the back of the amp. That’s a lot of faffing about under time pressure, possibly in poor lighting and often cramped conditions. Admittedly I could configure the cabinets to be daisy chained out of the Terror but given it has 2 speaker outlets, I am inclined to think there must be a reason for that, so I use them both. It would be great if the Gnome had speakon out (even a combi). That way the hot swap would just involve kettle lead and one speakon lead out of the Terror. Yeah this is pretty much it really, I use in ears live but I still take my micro head to rehearsals for convenience along with a Speakon to jack cable so I can plug into anything with just that one cable. I had to replace the speakon in the amp with a combi socket but it was worth it as I have everything I need in a single box. Besides, look what the bloody Gnome cabs have, Bax are even doing a package deal with the Gnome head and a Speakon cable, somebody is going to be disappointed on Christmas day! Might just be getting stubborn and lazy in my old age but I don't really want to faff about with extra cables or adapters, besides the accessory pockets in my gigbags are already full of stuff anyway! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunderwonder Posted November 2, 2021 Share Posted November 2, 2021 On 29/10/2021 at 04:32, Phil Starr said: You'd think that Trace would want to distance themselves from their much cheaper competitors though. Iirc there isn't quite the room for a speakon. In any case when it was designed it had no competition. Still nothing else is as compact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnDaBass Posted November 2, 2021 Share Posted November 2, 2021 On 28/10/2021 at 15:30, lemmywinks said: It's more just a "why do bass amps still have just 1/4" jacks in 2021" thing tbh, especially as it does lok like there's room for a Speakon in both of those. Maybe it's not just the cost saving of the 1/4" jack itself but also cheaper for it as much to be surface mount as possible. I can imagine if margins are tight then it might not be viable for a daughter board or soldering wires. I'd happily pay £10 more for that capability though. Here is another 200w offering with speakon output. https://www.pjbworld.com/cms/index.php/bp-200/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted November 2, 2021 Share Posted November 2, 2021 41 minutes ago, JohnDaBass said: Here is another 200w offering with speakon output. https://www.pjbworld.com/cms/index.php/bp-200/ I get the feeling that one isn't going to be priced like the Warwick and TC offerings! The aux in and mute switch are cool features though and make it a more versatile practice tool. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rothko Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 While sorting out the 4-year warranty extension from warwick.de on my new-today Gnome i Pro, I saw in the drop down produect option menu a 'v2 300w Gnome Pro' and a '600w Gnome Pro'. Coming next year? 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linus27 Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 1 hour ago, Rothko said: While sorting out the 4-year warranty extension from warwick.de on my new-today Gnome i Pro, I saw in the drop down produect option menu a 'v2 300w Gnome Pro' and a '600w Gnome Pro'. Coming next year? Oooh good spot sir, a 600W Gnome will be very interesting. I love my 300 i Pro so very interested in a 600W model to perhaps become my main head. Will be interesting to see if it has any additional features or changes. Would be nice if they made it in the original black colour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 A 600W Gnome sounds very interesting. It’s essentially what Trace should have done with the Elf 2 years ago. We’re still waiting for their 1200W offering aren’t we! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDaddy Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 (edited) If it's the same size, I'd be very interested in a 600w Gnome. Edited December 31, 2021 by MacDaddy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 23 minutes ago, MacDaddy said: If it's the same size, I'd be very interested in a 600w Gnome. Def, an amp that size for backup or for flying gigs would be ideal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 Doubt it would be the same size as the regular Gnome, the 280w i Pro is larger than than the 200w model and that doesn't quite manage to be a true nano head for me. Would be nice if they could pull that off though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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