Zoom models

[paul_5]

Hi. I'm considering a zoom unit for my pedalboard. It needs to be small, and do phaser, synths, and (ideally) a sequence/arpeggiator with a tap tempo function. 

Is the Zoom B1-Four any good for this, or should I look elsewhere. I've had an MS60B in the past, and the build quality and footprint are ideal, but just curious how far things have moved on since I last played one.

[Al Krow]

None of the Zoom models will provide a sequence/arpeggiator with a tap tempo function but they do cover a lot of other ground and they're all very good value.

I've had a couple of MS-60Bs, a B3N and a B1-4X along the way but have finally settled on the B1-4 which is sitting at the heart of my board and I'm enjoying a lot (plus a spare for use as a portable headphone amp & preamp).

I posted a fairly detailed comparison of the MS-60B and B1-4 at the start of this thread, if it's of any interest.

Edited May 25, 2021 by Al Krow

[andruca]

IME, the MS-60B/B3/B1on/Xon generation sounds better. I've owned a B1X Four last year and, even tho' it could sound great, it was basically NOISIER and BOXIER, had a sorta' narrow response and an annoying peak @180hz when A/Bed with the MS-60B. I could tell this same thing every time I've tried a B3n, but wasn't sure because I hadn't A/Bed it with my MS-60B. There's an added con, the Bass PEQ effect is now single band, when it was previously 2-band. So it kinda' defeats the purpose of having 1 more slot (4 to 5) if I have to heavily EQ it (2 instances) and add ZNR to every patch. Still there's fancy new stuff in the B3n/B1 four generation, such as hi/lo pass filter. BUT old ones have the AC BS PRE (Fishman preamp emulation) that carries a DEPTH param, which is a hi-pass filter (few people know or exploit this). The other thing the new models have is Darkglass emulations. I've had success in faking it with either the DI+ (MXR) emulation or blending plain Metal Zone emulation (still building a GUMA DRIVE for this -and for the fun-). I've given all details about my MS-60B vs. B1X Four adventure in a TalkBass thread. Also, here's a sample from a fellow BCer. It's not the tones I'd use, but it gives an idea of the overall voicing difference between the 2 generations.

And no, my B1X Four wasn't a lemon, it worked perfectly and could definitely sound decent with enough tweaking, additional EQ and noise reduction. It's just that the MS-60B naturally sounds fuller and more quiet. Since ditching the B1X four I've added a B3 and a G3 (exclusively for home recording) and a G1Xon. Both the MS-60B and the G1Xon have custom firmwares with all its bass/guitar counterpart relevant stuff so I can use any with either bass or guitar (you can customize the firmware in the current generation too). My advice is get a used B1on or B1Xon (I got my G1Xon used months ago for 35€, power supply included).

Edited May 18, 2021 by andruca

[Al Krow]

On 18/05/2021 at 09:36, andruca said:

IME, the MS-60B/B3/B1on/Xon generation sounds better. I've owned a B1X Four last year and, even tho' it could sound great, it was basically NOISIER and BOXIER, had a sorta' narrow response and an annoying peak @180hz when A/Bed with the MS-60B. I could tell this same thing every time I've tried a B3n, but wasn't sure because I hadn't A/Bed it with my MS-60B. There's an added con, the Bass PEQ effect is now single band, when it was previously 2-band. So it kinda' defeats the purpose of having 1 more slot (4 to 5) if I have to heavily EQ it (2 instances) and add ZNR to every patch. Still there's fancy new stuff in the B3n/B1 four generation, such as hi/lo pass filter. BUT old ones have the AC BS PRE (Fishman preamp emulation) that carries a DEPTH param, which is a hi-pass filter (few people know or exploit this). The other thing the new models have is Darkglass emulations. I've had success in faking it with either the DI+ (MXR) emulation or blending plain Metal Zone emulation (still building a GUMA DRIVE for this -and for the fun-). I've given all details about my MS-60B vs. B1X Four adventure in a TalkBass thread. Also, here's a sample from a fellow BCer. It's not the tones I'd use, but it gives an idea of the overall voicing difference between the 2 generations.

And no, my B1X Four wasn't a lemon, it worked perfectly and could definitely sound decent with enough tweaking. It's just that the MS-60B naturally sounds fuller and more quiet. Since ditching the B1X four I've added a B3 and a G3 (exclusively for home recording) and a G1Xon. Both the MS-60B and the G1Xon have custom firmwares with all its bass/guitar counterpart relevant stuff so I can use any with either bass or guitar. My advice is get a used B1on or B1Xon (I got my G1Xon used months ago for 35€, power supply included).

Very useful to get this balanced perspective / alternative view from @andruca

Edited May 19, 2021 by Al Krow

[andruca]

14 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I'm a very contented B1-4 fanboi, so it's very useful to get this balanced perspective from @andruca

Don't get me wrong, I found the Four as usable as any of the other Zoom multiFX I've owned (BFX-708, 708II -replaced a Boss GT-6B-, B2.1u, MS-60B, B3, G3, G1Xon). Here's another sample, playing with the SansAmp and Darkglass emulations (details of what you hear in the YouTube description). Still, you can feel some of that boxyness in this clips when "clean" at the beginning...

I remember this happening to me once more in the past, when switching from the 708II to the B2.1u. I kept the 708II until getting next generation's MS60B (which really destroyed everything Zoom I'd had before). Still a Zoom fanboy, waiting like a sucker for the next gen to show up.

(I own 2 of those R24s indeed, basically my 16-track mobile recording app)

Edited May 18, 2021 by andruca

[BigusNC]

First post here, I think!  And shouldn't be.  I should thank you all for helping me decide to pick up a MS60b in January that has been awesome!  I was addicted to the sturdy looking build and happy with the effects and the "tone in a box" setup for playing out.  I designed 3 patches- clean, mild overdrive and Nirvana style OD and chorus.  That and the easy to use tuner/ mute are probably all I'll need unless I play out a lot more than occasionally for church.  Not likely until retirement probably.

As it goes, my house isn't quite tiny- but it IS small and older.  So even my little Fender combo is too much for playing with the wife and 1 or more kids home.  But, I remembered all the nice things @Al Krow said (and many others) about the B1four as a headphone/ practice tool so I just bought one used online for $75USD (not cheap compared to what he was selling the B3N that I missed out on for but still. worth it.)

 

Very familiar with ToneLib for the 60b so excited to give it a run on the b14 and be able to practice more often in more places.   And have a neat back-up if somehow I break the 60b.  Or if Al is 100% correct, maybe the other way around.

 

Anyway, welcome to Basschat to me and also thanks to you all.

Edited May 24, 2021 by BigusNC

[BigusNC]

And just realized @andruca is in this thread and to be thanked for his contributions and discussions of various patches and settings!

 

Thanks!

[paul_5]

I decided to spring for an Ms60b, having had one before. I’ve played through a b1-four, but found some of the synths were missing, and it didn’t sound great.

I run mine through a blend pedal, so all of my patches are 100% effect and no clean signal at all; and blending and phase problems are sorted out by my looper. 
 

It’s perhaps the smallest multi FX on the market, fits well on my board, and sounds good. Prior to this I was experimenting with a line 6 M5, which sounded amazing, but the synths were a bit weak. Everything else about the M5 was great - being able to assign any parameter to the expression pedal and having a dedicated ‘tap tempo’ button is a big plus in my book, but ultimately I was only using about 10% f what it was capable of, and it had a significantly larger footprint than the MS60B.

[Phil Starr]

7 hours ago, BigusNC said:

First post here, I think!  And shouldn't be.  I should thank you all for helping me decide to pick up a MS60b in January that has been awesome!  I was addicted to the sturdy looking build and happy with the effects and the "tone in a box" setup for playing out.  I designed 3 patches- clean, mild overdrive and Nirvana style OD and chorus.  That and the easy to use tuner/ mute are probably all I'll need unless I play out a lot more than occasionally for church.  Not likely until retirement probably.

As it goes, my house isn't quite tiny- but it IS small and older.  So even my little Fender combo is too much for playing with the wife and 1 or more kids home.  But, I remembered all the nice things @Al Krow said (and many others) about the B1four as a headphone/ practice tool so I just bought one used online for $75USD (not cheap compared to what he was selling the B3N that I missed out on for but still. worth it.)

 

Very familiar with ToneLib for the 60b so excited to give it a run on the b14 and be able to practice more often in more places.   And have a neat back-up if somehow I break the 60b.  Or if Al is 100% correct, maybe the other way around.

 

Anyway, welcome to Basschat to me and also thanks to you all.

Yeah welcome to BC

[Phil Starr]

On 18/05/2021 at 09:36, andruca said:

IME, the MS-60B/B3/B1on/Xon generation sounds better. I've owned a B1X Four last year and, even tho' it could sound great, it was basically NOISIER and BOXIER, had a sorta' narrow response and an annoying peak @180hz when A/Bed with the MS-60B. I could tell this same thing every time I've tried a B3n, but wasn't sure because I hadn't A/Bed it with my MS-60B. There's an added con, the Bass PEQ effect is now single band, when it was previously 2-band. So it kinda' defeats the purpose of having 1 more slot (4 to 5) if I have to heavily EQ it (2 instances) and add ZNR to every patch. Still there's fancy new stuff in the B3n/B1 four generation, such as hi/lo pass filter. BUT old ones have the AC BS PRE (Fishman preamp emulation) that carries a DEPTH param, which is a hi-pass filter (few people know or exploit this). The other thing the new models have is Darkglass emulations. I've had success in faking it with either the DI+ (MXR) emulation or blending plain Metal Zone emulation (still building a GUMA DRIVE for this -and for the fun-). I've given all details about my MS-60B vs. B1X Four adventure in a TalkBass thread. Also, here's a sample from a fellow BCer. It's not the tones I'd use, but it gives an idea of the overall voicing difference between the 2 generations.

And no, my B1X Four wasn't a lemon, it worked perfectly and could definitely sound decent with enough tweaking, additional EQ and noise reduction. It's just that the MS-60B naturally sounds fuller and more quiet. Since ditching the B1X four I've added a B3 and a G3 (exclusively for home recording) and a G1Xon. Both the MS-60B and the G1Xon have custom firmwares with all its bass/guitar counterpart relevant stuff so I can use any with either bass or guitar (you can customize the firmware in the current generation too). My advice is get a used B1on or B1Xon (I got my G1Xon used months ago for 35€, power supply included).

Thanks so much for this, I've been using my B1ON for headphone practice forever but have only just started to use it live. For practice it is great for making a cheap bass sound like a decent one but for live work i like a fairly clean sound so it's been an unnecessary distraction, to date. Over lockdown I've been starting recording and adding fx after recording a clean bass. It's been a revelation which is making me question my decision to play clean. I'm absolutely going to investigate the AC BS PRE and add it to the bit of compression and dirt I'm using now.

I was thinking to buy the B1 Four as an upgrade, now I don't need to. i'll stick with the B1ON for another year or so and learn what it does, then re-examine.

[Rumple]

You can add sounds from one Zoom pedal to another using a free Windows program called Zoom Effect Manager 1.1.1, I have just used it to add some effects from the MS-50G and MS-70CDR to my MS-60B.

[andruca]

FYI, I don't miss not having a Darkglass emulation anymore in my previous gen Zoom gadgets.

Thing is I got a GUMA-Drive kit (B3K clone) for Xmas and I managed to get it finished these days. I've been using it in conjunction with any of my Zoom multi-FX (MS-60B, B3, G1Xon with custom firmware), adding some clean BASS DRIVE (SansAmp emulation) to fatten up the bass+GUMA-Drive signal to the kind of tone I need for a flat EQ in my amp, and then compress with the 160 Comp (barely does any limiting, the GUMA-Drive/B3K compress A LOT). This is how it sounds. (Jazz Bass, first all open, then just the neck pickup, picked, drop-D, the GUMA-Drive set to drive=1 o'clock, level=2 o'clock, blend=1 o'clock, grunt=raw, attack=flat).

The reproduction of the Darkglass sorta' tone has been puzzling me since I ditched the B1X4 last year. After using the GUMA-Drive for some days it was itching too much, so yesterday afternoon I spent about 1+ hour of A/Bing trying to get as close as I could to the kinda' tone I use (not the GUMA-Drive itself but the whole tone I use) just with what's available in the Zoom devices. Now, for the basics, we need to understand and decompose what a B3K OD does. In my observation and in order of importance it's: 1) CMOS distortion (main character of it all), 2) lo-mid grunt (this is what makes it "boxy" in a nice punchy way, compared to, say, a SansAmp), 3) hi-mid grinding peak and 4) compress (quite a lot).

With this in mind I got to work, using my G1Xon (virtually a G1Xon + B1Xon) for maximum slot capacity and looked thru' the available distortions, to finally settle on the BA SQUEAK (blendable RAT emulation). Now, I know a RAT is hard clipping, not a CMOS type of overdrive, still, it's what gets me there. If you'd ask in the real world I'd say a RAT doesn't sound anything like a Darkglass overdrive, but hey, I've never ran into a RAT with a blend control in real life, ant also we're in Zoom's digital modelling mystery world here, combinations producing mystery results is sorta' expected. At first I thought the DI+ (MXR) emulation might be the best candidate, but I was wrong. The next best thing to the RAT is the METAL WORLD (Metal Zone emulation, using low gain&blend, flat tone), then came the TS+DRY (blendable Tube Screamer, gain about 60-70, tone about 60), the DI+ was far behind in comparison, my initial prediction was caca.

So, here's my "DARKRAT" patch (real name)...

1) BA SQUEAK: gain=10, tone=50, level=100, bal=37
(does the CMOSey kinda' distortion necessary)

2) BASS DRIVE: bass=5, trebl=-5, prese=0, gain=70, blend=75, level=100, mid=-4
(fattens it up, cuts upper highs and further adds grunt, also takes out more mids, we need lo-mids and hi-mids, not much mid-mids in my tone as the kind of pick playing I do -soft pick played hard, alla' Nolly, but less metal, more punk/HC/rock- means a constant beat up of strings whipping the fretboard, the pickups, whatever)

3) BA PEQ: freq1=140, q1=1, gain1=6, freq2=2.0khz, q2=0.5, gain2=4, level=110
(both enhances the "lo-mid" grunt and the grinding peak of the distortion)

4) 160 COMP: thrsh=-20, ratio=10.0, gain=15, knee=soft, level=80
(self explanatory)

5) ZNR: thrsh=15, detct=gtrin, level=100
(pretty "binary" noise supression, several distortion stages make a lot of noise you don't want)

Yeah, I know it's 5 effects (only workable on the B1on/Xon). SO, if you have the MS-60B (4 slots) you should try take out the ZNR first (less damaging to the tone). You might even get away with a B3 (just 3 slots) by also getting rid of the BA PEQ and try to make it work just with the EQ in the BASS DRIVE. So the minimal stuff to get you in the ballpark would be BA SQUEAK->BASS DRIVE->160 COMP.

This is how it sounds from my G1Xon. If you compare with the sample in my second paragraph (same bass, same piece, same recording conditions) it's real close. There's some loss of detail in certain zones of the spectre, most notable between neck pickup parts, the GUMA-Drive is just a tad more detailed both in the high end and in the "clonk" zone (I suspect playing with the gain and tone controls of the RAT emulation could deal with that, the thing is to screw up the bass' character the least while still getting the amount of drive we need).

Hope it helps anybody or at least serves as food for thought.

EDIT: I even went as freakish as to compare spectres to adjust EQ. I made some minimal changes to the above patch and the Zoom sample you hear. This is how they compare...

Edited June 5, 2021 by andruca

[paul_5]

1 hour ago, andruca said:

the thing is to screw up the bass' character the least while still getting the amount of drive we need).

That’s a DEEP rabbit-hole!