Commissioning an instrument

[zbd1960]

Background Waffle...

For reasons I will explain in a moment, I am seriously considering commissioning a bass. I have always liked the idea of having an instrument made for me. I first thought about it with a tenor viol (viola da gamba). Whilst I love the viol, the problem is I find it impossible to find others to play with (almost all music for tenor viol is as part of a viol consort of 3 - 6 instruments). They're also expensive at around £5k+ and long lead times from luthiers.

I did consider cello, but there are reasons for not doing so. First is cost - at least £10k and probably nearer £15k. Big problem is you have no idea what it will sound like and it can take about 3 years' of playing to 'break in'.

Until 2 weeks ago I was going to leave thinking about a bass for another year or two until I felt 'good enough'... Then a work colleague and friend who I've been to lunch with for most days of the last 35 years dropped dead. He was 3 years younger than me and unlike me, still working.

Complete re-think: why wait? I'm already over 60, I can afford to do it now, so I'm going to get on with it.

 

The Plan  

After reading various posts/threads I have been looking at various web sites of various luthiers whose work I like the look of. I have e-mailed out, but replies seem to be on the slow side...

I'm drawing up a list of things / options. Probably go with 5 string based loosely around J bass. Long term I am looking to playing jazz / big band but will no doubt get to play many other genres at times. So, probably want a clean and neutral sound (that can always be modified by amps or pedals).

I realise an experienced luthier will be able to help and advise, especially when it comes to PUP and electronics options. Any thoughts on pitfalls to avoid?

I'm hoping I get to start discussing with a luthier next week.  

 

[TheGreek]

For a Bass you can't go wrong with the luthiers on this forum. I've had two custom builds from @Andyjr1515 and he's also renovated a couple. Check the builds threads to see whose work you like.

I'd also give serious consideration to ACG - Alan builds superb "not quite run of the mill" basses - build quality is amazing and prices are less than a new Fender.

If you're after an Electric Upright you should check out ForteVio who makes electric violins/cellos and double basses. Videos on YT and FB.

[OliverBlackman]

15 hours ago, zbd1960 said:

Background Waffle...

For reasons I will explain in a moment, I am seriously considering commissioning a bass. I have always liked the idea of having an instrument made for me. I first thought about it with a tenor viol (viola da gamba). Whilst I love the viol, the problem is I find it impossible to find others to play with (almost all music for tenor viol is as part of a viol consort of 3 - 6 instruments). They're also expensive at around £5k+ and long lead times from luthiers.

I did consider cello, but there are reasons for not doing so. First is cost - at least £10k and probably nearer £15k. Big problem is you have no idea what it will sound like and it can take about 3 years' of playing to 'break in'.

Until 2 weeks ago I was going to leave thinking about a bass for another year or two until I felt 'good enough'... Then a work colleague and friend who I've been to lunch with for most days of the last 35 years dropped dead. He was 3 years younger than me and unlike me, still working.

Complete re-think: why wait? I'm already over 60, I can afford to do it now, so I'm going to get on with it.

 

The Plan  

After reading various posts/threads I have been looking at various web sites of various luthiers whose work I like the look of. I have e-mailed out, but replies seem to be on the slow side...

I'm drawing up a list of things / options. Probably go with 5 string based loosely around J bass. Long term I am looking to playing jazz / big band but will no doubt get to play many other genres at times. So, probably want a clean and neutral sound (that can always be modified by amps or pedals).

I realise an experienced luthier will be able to help and advise, especially when it comes to PUP and electronics options. Any thoughts on pitfalls to avoid?

I'm hoping I get to start discussing with a luthier next week.  

 

Electronics can be easily switched out. I think you should be more concerned with the overall feel of the instrument. Shape and size elements; scale length, string spacing, neck shape, weight ect.

[BigRedX]

personally I wouldn't bother going custom for something based on a classic "off-the-peg" design like a J-bass. There are already a multitude of manufactures all doing their own take on this instrument, so unless you have very precise and specialised needs, there really ought to be something already available that will be perfect for you. 

I'd suggest a trip to one of the big mainstream retailers to try every J-type bass in the store, followed by outings to both Bass Direct and The Gallery to do the same. If you really can't find a ready made bass that suits you, then at least you will have a much better idea of what you want from a custom instrument.

[CookPassBabtridge]

I second @BigRedX’s suggestion of paying Bass Direct a visit. Mark’s knowledge of different bass builders is pretty much unrivalled and he’ll likely either have an instrument in stock that suits your needs, or one that will at least confirm what kind of attributes you’re looking for. 

[HazBeen]

I think the OP mentions “loosely based” on a J, I would therefore certainly advise to speak to a luthier.

I am lucky as I build my own custom instruments (plus the odd commission for others), to my specs and being able to choose whatever you want is a wonderful, although sometimes daunting feeling.

Contact @Andyjr1515, he has done things I do not see other luthiers take on. Simple fact is that the more you rely on building as your main income, the less willing you will be to go outside the box unless you can charge a fortune to do so. 

[Andyjr1515]

22 hours ago, TheGreek said:

For a Bass you can't go wrong with the luthiers on this forum. I've had two custom builds from @Andyjr1515 and he's also renovated a couple. Check the builds threads to see whose work you like.

I'd also give serious consideration to ACG - Alan builds superb "not quite run of the mill" basses - build quality is amazing and prices are less than a new Fender.

If you're after an Electric Upright you should check out ForteVio who makes electric violins/cellos and double basses. Videos on YT and FB.

And, in my view, Alan at ACG is pretty much at the top of the 'luthier's luthier' list...

[NJE]

I agree with the other replies in that going and playing some instruments will help identify what you want. The chances are you may even be able to find some secondhand examples of uk luthiers work at The Bass Gallery and Bass Direct like Status, Goodfellow and Sei.

I have owned and played a lot of custom made/bespoke/hand crafted instruments from small luthiers and two of the best I have ever played for feel and quality were a GB Spitfire and a 5 string Rob Elrick Mark at Bass Direct put in my hands many years ago.

I also played a Sei Jazz briefly and it was phenomenal as were my old Overwaters but they were pipped slightly by the Spitfire (some of that could have been the hypnotic Birdseye neck though 😄)

You may be able to find a great bass from a small custom builder in stock somewhere so go have a few days out and play a lid of basses.

[skej21]

Having been in a similar situation, I would echo most of the advice so far but also say that sometimes, the huge drop in value from new of a custom instrument has its own special kind of buyer’s remorse that I certainly didn’t feel ready for. Tastes change very quickly and if that coincides with you wanting (or more likely, needing) to sell it, it’s tough to take the fact that you’re likely to only recoup half of what you put in to it. 
 

It is an incredible experience though, especially (if like me, who was lucky enough to go to a few big brand factories with work and pick up multiple kinds of instruments every day) you’ve had plenty experience of tone wood choices and  scale lengths, neck radius etc and can feel confident that what you pick will suit you. If not, I’d imagine it’s quite a nervy experience!

Good luck and don’t forgot to enjoy the ride!

Edited May 23, 2021 by skej21

[4000]

6 hours ago, CookPassBabtridge said:

I second @BigRedX’s suggestion of paying Bass Direct a visit. Mark’s knowledge of different bass builders is pretty much unrivalled and he’ll likely either have an instrument in stock that suits your needs, or one that will at least confirm what kind of attributes you’re looking for. 

I’d suggest the Gallery first as in my experience they’re far more open-minded. My experience at Bass Direct completely put me off them. 

[HazBeen]

Certainly the drop in value on custom builds is astronomic, you literally lose 40% on most makes with very few exceptions (certain US brands I would say) instantly. So worth keeping in mind.

[binky_bass]

I'd definitely speak to Alan at ACG. I have 4 of his instruments, one a custom order, one he was mostly finished with for NAMM and two I bought pre-owned. They are all exceptional instruments and honestly equal to or better than anything else I own/have owned, and when I say that I'm comparing ACG instruments against the very highest caliber of basses from USA Conklin to Overwater, Fodera, De Geir, Jerzy Drozd etc. Also, from my experience Alan is quick to respond and very easy to work with. Absolutely worth some serious consideration as you simply won't get a higher quality of build and his prices are extremely reasonable. And obviously he's a UK luthier so no hideous inport taxes to be paid! 

Edited May 23, 2021 by binky_bass

[Skybone]

Only ever done it once, but it was exactly as I wanted it. 

IMO, you need to be 100% certain on your specification. Knowing what you like and what you don't like is a key factor in the decision making process. Pickups, electronics (passive or active), body shape, neck shape, colour, finish, types of timber used, etc.

There is a lot to consider, and a lot to mull over before committing yourself, especially if you have ever bought something and if it's not quite right, you've sold it on.

Is it worthwhile looking at a high spec instrument from one of the "boutique" makers?

Also had a valve amp and some pedals built, but their specs were set, and it was just the cosmetics that were customised.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Skybone

[zbd1960]

Thank you for the feedback that has come in - it's all useful. 

I am looking around quite widely and will be travelling around as needed. I've already noticed one thing, which is not everyone replies to e-mails... there are several companies who will remain nameless who haven't replied yet to e-mails sent a week ago. It might be holidays... in which case put an 'out of office' auto reply in place... but it might not be. First impressions count.   

[OliverBlackman]

55 minutes ago, zbd1960 said:

Thank you for the feedback that has come in - it's all useful. 

I am looking around quite widely and will be travelling around as needed. I've already noticed one thing, which is not everyone replies to e-mails... there are several companies who will remain nameless who haven't replied yet to e-mails sent a week ago. It might be holidays... in which case put an 'out of office' auto reply in place... but it might not be. First impressions count.   

A lot of them are very small outfits and put most of their resources into making instruments. I think it’s worth a call before writing them off completely.

[zbd1960]

3 hours ago, OliverBlackman said:

A lot of them are very small outfits and put most of their resources into making instruments. I think it’s worth a call before writing them off completely.

Agreed. I realise most will be small run by one person - I've dealt with luthiers for cellos, they're generally one person in a workshop. My main cello is German from around 1900 and I had it sorted out by a guy near Liverpool. He has a nice big Victorian house and his workshop is a mix of the cellar and the attic rooms.  

Edited May 23, 2021 by zbd1960

[TheGreek]

16 minutes ago, zbd1960 said:

My main cello is German from around 1900 and I had it sorted out by a guy near Liverpool.

Presumably because the original builder didn't respond to emails??

[Guest]

Personally I’d rather own a bass I can play before committing to pay for it. The problem with a custom build is that you can spec the perfect bass for you, but you won’t really know whether it’s the bass you always dreamed of, or if you’ll hate it. I’ve only done it once and I hated the end result, even though I thought it was the spec I’d love… then had to pay for it and sell it shortly afterward at a massive loss. If you’re willing to take that risk then go ahead. But as others have said, there are plenty of off the peg J style basses out there to suit, and if you can get to a shop, you can have a good long play before committing.

[PaulThePlug]

5 Jazz...

The offer of £685 may still be on?

Edited May 23, 2021 by PaulThePlug

[OliverBlackman]

There’s loads of cheaper options, but if you have the money and want to own something special then a commission build can be brilliant. I could have had a Sire instead of an Overwater but I have zero regrets as I love the result whereas I wouldn’t have the same feeling for something off the shelf.

[Owen]

2 hours ago, zbd1960 said:

Agreed. I realise most will be small run by one person - I've dealt with luthiers for cellos, they're generally one person in a workshop. My main cello is German from around 1900 and I ahd it sorted out by a guy near Liverpool. He has a nice big Victorian house and his workshop is a mi of the cellar and the attic rooms.  

That has to be Jan Shelley.  He does some lovely work.

[zbd1960]

2 hours ago, TheGreek said:

Presumably because the original builder didn't respond to emails??

Well, the family still seems to be making instruments - I think 5th generation? I did some internet digging to find out about the maker. My instrument is probably a 'workshop' instrument made by the journeyman under supervision rather than made by the master luthier. It seems to have been made around 1900

[zbd1960]

1 hour ago, owen said:

That has to be Jan Shelley.  He does some lovely work.

Yes, it was Jan. He's done a lot to sort out my cello. Made and fitted a new bridge, tuned the finger board, new end-pin unit and end-pin (he has them made out of tool steel), new (tuned) tail-piece to balance treble/bass and new tail gut, clean and polish (very big job), measure and reconfiguration of the bridge (moved it about 10mm towards the lower bouts - 'f' holes in the wrong place), and new strings.   

[BigRedX]

14 hours ago, zbd1960 said:

Thank you for the feedback that has come in - it's all useful. 

I am looking around quite widely and will be travelling around as needed. I've already noticed one thing, which is not everyone replies to e-mails... there are several companies who will remain nameless who haven't replied yet to e-mails sent a week ago. It might be holidays... in which case put an 'out of office' auto reply in place... but it might not be. First impressions count.   

Very much agree with this. If you are going to publicise a means of contact then you should be prepared use that means of contact to communicate with your potential customers, even if it's only an automated OoO reply or something encouraging you to phone instead.

13 hours ago, OliverBlackman said:

A lot of them are very small outfits and put most of their resources into making instruments. I think it’s worth a call before writing them off completely.

I'm self employed and because if I am in a situation where I am only available on my mobile I will not be in a position where I can easily deal with a reply to a customer's query, therefore I not longer give it out. When I first went self employed I publicised every means of contact, but as the business developed I have learned what works best for me and also best for servicing the needs of my customers, and having my mobile number as a means of business contact is not one of those things. If it had turned out that email was unsuitable or inconvenient I would have removed that from my contact details instead.

[uk_lefty]

Once retailers get their stocks replenished I'd recommend buying/ trying a handful of Sire basses if you want something loosely based on a jazz. Sire have so many options: maple, roasted maple or ebony board. 4 or 5 string. Active or passive. Alder or Ash. PJ and JJ. I bought one off Thomann and quickly learned: maple boards look great but sound brittle to me, I rarely used the low B and so I'm happy with D tuners on a 4. I can get on with active electronics as long as they're well made and not the nasty 2 band rubbish I'd used in the past. I don't like gloss finish necks. If I was right handed and had the option to go to a retailer with loads of Sires I could have tested out PJ configs and allsorts to find what really works vs what looks best or what I think will be best. 

Edited May 24, 2021 by uk_lefty