Advice needed for amp and cab size and gigs

[Brightside]

Hello!

I'm a noob when it comes to bass gear and what's required for smallish pub gigs. I gigged once before at a larger venue with an Ashdown mag 300w 2x10 combo and it was fine, but waaaaay to heavy for me to be lugging around myself, so I moved on.

Since gigs haven't been a thing for the past year or so, I got a trace elliot elf and matching 1x10 speaker. Works perfectly for band practice (covers band, 1 electric guitar, 1 acoustic, 1 e drums, and bass), but now we're venturing into the gigging world again I'm not sure my current rig will cut it.

I was toying with the idea of getting another 1x10 speaker to bring the amp up to 200w at 4ohms, but then I read about how it is fine to get an amp with greater power output than the speaker as long as you're careful with the volume? The 1x10 elf speaker I currently have is 300w, so not sure if getting a 300w or greater amp would be a better option?

Your help would be greatly appreciated!! Gigs start in a couple of weeks, and don't want to break the bank on new gear, maybe up to £500.

 

[Paddy515]

Ive tried every combination and settled on two 300 watt lightweight 112s and a 500 watt (at 4 ohms) class D. Take your Elf and 110 to somewhere you can try out another matching 110 , see how that performs and take things from there. May be fine for your needs which sound the same requirements  as mine or you might need more "umph" from your amp.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Paddy515

[Trueno]

Someone will say it, so I’ll get in first... Fender Rumble 500 combo. Light, loud, sounds great.

But... as you already have an Elf you may be better exploring other options.

[FinnDave]

I've gigged my Elf with a Barefaced Super Compact (1x12) and it sounded great in a guitar driven there piece. Amp volume was about 1/3rd max.

[Lozz196]

If you liked the Ashdown sound and 300 watts with a 210 worked for you I’d look at one of their RM500 heads and either an RM210 or ABM Pro Neo 210. The RM amps are great, really powerful with a great sound and very flexible eq, plus on-board drive & compression, weighs less than 3kg. Each cab mentioned is under 18kg and an easy one handed lift. Later on you can always add in another cab.

[Supernaut]

Secondhand Mark Bass CMD 121P. Best combo I've ever used. 

Attach the extension cab and you're good to go. 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Supernaut

[Muzz]

DI into the PA and use your current setup as a monitor? Cost = £20 for an XLR...

[Chienmortbb]

I suspect you Elf into two 10s will be loud enough for most gigs. You will get 2-3 dB extra from the amp and 3-6dB extra from two vertical cabs. One thing to note is that the Elf's DI is post DI. So your EQ settings will affect the DI feed. Some Sound Techs might ask for a pre-EQ DI. In which case I suggest an Orchid Classic DI http://orchid-electronics.co.uk/classic_DI.htm.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

20 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

You will get 2-3 dB extra from the amp and 3-6dB extra from two vertical cabs.

Strictly speaking you will get 6dB of increased speaker sensitivity, which is the equivalent of a quadrupling of power. You don't get anything 'extra' from the amp, because what determines loudness is cone displacement, which is determined by voltage swing, which is the same into either one or two cabs. Level voltage into twice the displacement gets 6dB.  Where the OP is concerned if one 110 seems nearly adequate then the additional 6dB of sensitivity that will result from adding a second identical 110 should be fine.

[Brightside]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

I went into the local music shop and tried out a fender rumble 200 since they didn't have the 500 available to demo. Sounds nice so that's definitely an option.

I also took away a GK MB500 to try with my elf 1x10 cab at home. The sound was nice, probably preferable to the elf, but it had big distortion issues on the low b string with my cab which isn't present with the elf. I take it this is more of a cab issue than an amp issue? Would this be rectified with adding another 1x10? 

[Phil Starr]

I'm with @Chienmortbb on this, probably.

you won't get the theoretical 6dB extra as the Elf won't deliver double the power into 4ohms but you will get close to that, around 5dB is likely. That's the equivalent of almost four times the amp power but sharing the task of shifting air between two cones means each won't be working so hard. You already know that the speaker will distort if you just double the amp power, do it for any length of time and they will break. Generally speaking two tens will get you where you need to be, but i don't know your band of course.

There are two ways to go on this, put your bass through the PA and just use your 'rig' as a monitor for you to hear or if your PA isn't up to bass then you need to get your sound levels matching the drummer. You have the luxury of a drummer with a volume control. It's nice to have the second option as you can always turn down from maximum but you can't turn up if your system is already flat out.

Adding a second identical  10 is going to preserve your sound and give you much more headroom for the lowest cost and preserve the sound you have. Anything else will change your sound  and be more expensive, then you are into auditioning different gear and looking for a new sound. If you are newly back to this I'd keep it simple, within a year you will have a much clearer feeling for what you want to do and the same GAS for new gear most of us here suffer from  

If you don't like your sound then...... have fun looking

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

18 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

I'm with @Chienmortbb on this, probably.

you won't get the theoretical 6dB extra as the Elf won't deliver double the power into 4ohms

This repeats the common misconception that the doubling of current delivery, which results in a doubling of power, into two cabs versus one has anything to do with the 6dB increase in output. It doesn't. As I already noted what determines loudness is cone displacement, which is determined by voltage swing, which is the same into either one or two cabs. Level voltage into twice the displacement gets 6dB. The only limitation to this is when the amp is being run full tilt. Most amps are not be able to maintain the same voltage swing into two cabs as one when they're running at full capacity, due to power supply sag. But at volumes that aren't taxing the power supply you'll get 6dB every time.

Quote

I also took away a GK MB500 to try with my elf 1x10 cab at home. The sound was nice, probably preferable to the elf, but it had big distortion issues on the low b string with my cab which isn't present with the elf. I take it this is more of a cab issue than an amp issue? Would this be rectified with adding another 1x10? 

I'd be inclined to think it's the amp. Distortion on the low notes happens when the speaker runs out of excursion and/or the amp runs out of headroom. If speaker excursion was the problem it should happen with both amps. Another possibility is that the bass EQ of the GK was considerably higher than the Elf. That would cause both the amp and speaker to run out of headroom at a lower overall level than with the Elf. The way to test that is to try both amps at low volume, setting their EQ to sound as much alike as possible, and then see what happens when you take the volume up.

[Downunderwonder]

I think it is fair to assume anyone after gains is already running full tilt and coming up short. Usually they will be lacking dynamics from exhausting their headroom or their cab is complaining.

In the case of the Elf it's touching on being able to overdrive one BF110 but won't deliver double the power into two of them.

Power is a derivative quantity of voltage and impedance.

[Phil Starr]

6 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

This repeats the common misconception that the doubling of current delivery, which results in a doubling of power, into two cabs versus one has anything to do with the 6dB increase in output. It doesn't. As I already noted what determines loudness is cone displacement, which is determined by voltage swing, which is the same into either one or two cabs. Level voltage into twice the displacement gets 6dB. The only limitation to this is when the amp is being run full tilt. Most amps are not be able to maintain the same voltage swing into two cabs as one when they're running at full capacity, due to power supply sag. But at volumes that aren't taxing the power supply you'll get 6dB every time.

 

It doesn't really help someone who just wants a bit of practical advice to nit pick. The question makes it absolutely clear that the OP is only asking about what will work in practice and will be operating at levels where the voltage will drop as the current increases. so no you won't get 6db every time. Trace Elliott make that absolutely clear 130W into 8ohms and 200 into 4ohms. ie they don't expect a 3dB increase in power in practice at high levels. You know as well as I do that in practice very few commercial bass amps will double their maximum power into 4 ohms and we know this one certainly doesn't. 

For the OP don't worry about the little squabble, 5db is is plenty of extra sound and the extra 1db difference between what is theoretical (and real at low output levels) and what the Elf will actually do at high levels will only just be noticeable. Given your drummer's eKit  just adding an extra speaker to what you have will be fine

[Steve Browning]

The general view in these situation is pretty much always "get another, identical cab". 

[stevie]

Yes, that's the usual advice on this forum. "I have a cab that's inadequate and not loud enough. What to do?"

"Buy another inadequate cab. That'll fix it." 😀

I'm not saying that this is necessarily bad advice, but there are other options, like replacing the cab with one that'll do the job.

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by stevie

[stewblack]

Don't quite get that last post. 

I have a RM500 combo with a single 12. Its great. However in certain situations I have had to push it too hard and it's less great. Add the identical 12" cab and it will hold its own anywhere. 

So yes adding another cab the same will absolutely work

[stevie]

Sure, it'll work. But the alternative is to sell what you have and buy something else that will do the job you want. Is that hard to understand?

Edited May 28, 2021 by stevie

[Steve Browning]

21 minutes ago, stevie said:

Sure, it'll work. But the alternative is to sell what you have and buy something else that will do the job you want. Is that hard to understand?

Odd. Ditch a plan that 'will work' for something completely untried. I confess I do find that hard to understand but we all have different opinions.

[Dan Dare]

This is in danger of turning into handbags at dawn.

Fwiw, I think focussing on cabs is incorrect here. The OP is likely (imho, of course) to find the limiting factor is the head  Nothing wrong with a TE Elf - it's a micro amp, designed for practice/smaller jobs and it will handle that fine. However, it's power is limited - quoted max is 200w into 4 ohms.

Given that he says his existing 1x10 cab will handle 300w,  his Elf will likely run out of steam if he adds another. In his shoes and assuming I liked the sound the existing cab makes, I'd get another cab and a more powerful head. Should be doable for £600 odd (Elf is £200ish new, so assume roughly £100 from selling it) if he buys a used head. I tend to stick with new cabs as you don't know whether used ones have been abused, but that's just me.

 

Edited May 29, 2021 by Dan Dare

[Brightside]

24 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

This is in danger of turning into handbags at dawn.

Fwiw, I think focussing on cabs is incorrect here. The OP is likely (imho, of course) to find the limiting factor is the head  Nothing wrong with a TE Elf - it's a micro amp, designed for practice/smaller jobs and it will handle that fine. However, it's power is limited - quoted max is 200w into 4 ohms.

Given that he says his existing 1x10 cab will handle 300w,  his Elf will likely run out of steam if he adds another. In his shoes and assuming I liked the sound the existing cab makes, I'd get another cab and a more powerful head. Should be doable for £600 odd (Elf is £200ish new, so assume roughly £100 from selling it) if he buys a used head. I tend to stick with new cabs as you don't know whether used ones have been abused, but that's just me.

 

I currently have a GK MB2 500 second hand, 14 days to return if it doesn't work out. Do you think adding another TE 1x10 would fix the distortion at lower frequencies?

[Marvin]

I don't think there is an answer to this.

I owned a Fender Rumble 500 210 combo. They are loud and the sound for me was just lovely. However, it wasn't loud enough for the indie punk band I joined. I swapped the Fender for an Aguilar TH350 and Schroeder 1212L ( a 2x12). The latter was just stupid loud for it's size. It had no problems with two knuckle draggers using 2x12 cabs with 100w valve heads and a drummer who sat on his brain. It also managed quite a decent sized village hall not going through the PA with a 6 piece blues band.

Apart from the noticeable difference in driver size between the 2 there were a lot of other reasons why the Aggie and Schroeder were louder. That said, I never really liked the Aggie and Schroeder, which is odd because in the last 10years it's the set up I've owned the longest and done most gigs with.

Because I don't want the next band I'm in to be particularly loud I've gone for a Fender 210 cab and Peavey Minimax 500w head. It'll be more than enough for the places I'd likely be playing.

That's no help is it...

Edited May 29, 2021 by Marvin

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

20 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Power is a derivative quantity of voltage and impedance.

Power is determined by voltage and current, P= V x I. Neither power nor current define how loud a speaker will go. Current, and therefore power, is determined by the load impedance, and the load impedance of a speaker isn't constant, it varies with frequency. With the exact same decibel level you can be running 100 watts into the speaker at one frequency and 5 watts at another frequency. The reason why they're at the same level is because voltage determines level, and voltage doesn't vary with the impedance load. We really should never be talking about watts, always about volts, but that bridge was crossed and then burned almost 100 years ago, so there's no going back now.

[Dan Dare]

5 hours ago, Brightside said:

I currently have a GK MB2 500 second hand, 14 days to return if it doesn't work out. Do you think adding another TE 1x10 would fix the distortion at lower frequencies?

The only way to find out is to try it with another. If it distorts when you are pushing it, it may be that you are overpowering the cab. That will do it no favours, so don't keep doing it. If you are using a 1x10 in a band setting with a drummer, it's pretty likely it cannot cope. It may be rated to take 300w, but manufacturers can be a little optimistic with figures. Are you able to try the head with a different cab to see if it still happens?

[Chienmortbb]

I think we are in danger of getting away from the OP's is asking and I am as guilty as anyone.

To refine my answer. Adding a second cab will give you more SPL or acoustic output. It will be lower than 6dB (the Elf, like many amplifiers cannot sustain the double the power into 4 ohms that it can into 8 ohms. @Bill Fitzmaurice is right that I was double counting when adding in the amplifier power.

I also agree with @stevie that a better speaker is better than just adding another. I owned an Ashdown Mag 300W combo and  I don't think you would be happy at gig level with the Elf plus an extra cab solution.

Don't get too hung up on cabinet power. The rating is thermal as most speakers (like incandescent light bulbs) produce much mucj more heat than sound. I regularly practice with my amp into an 8" cabinet rated at 80 watts (the amp is rated 350 watts into 8 ohms. As long as you are sensible your should be