DI, Pre or Post EQ?

[Chienmortbb]

I have been using the BC112 MK3 for a couple of years and it is as near to an FRFR cab as you will get. So I set mys sound up as I like it. Would it be right to insist on sending a Post EQ signal to the PA? Amps like the Trace Elliot Elf only have a Post DI so unless there is a separate DI supplied, it has to be post anyway.Also with so many of us using pedals the notion of Pre DI seems of little use unless (as is usual) I  am missing something.

[Al Krow]

Nope don't think you are missing anything at all!

[Downunderwonder]

Depends on whether your tone suits the venue <cough>.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Pre or post your speakers aren't going to sound the same as the PA, so it doesn't matter that much, as the board channel EQ likely won't be run flat anyway. Which means that your out front tone is at the mercy of the sound guy anyway...😫

[ezbass]

19 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Pre or post your speakers aren't going to sound the same as the PA, so it doesn't matter that much, as the board channel EQ likely won't be run flat anyway. Which means that your out front tone is at the mercy of the sound guy anyway...😫

Ah, the sonic oil monkey.

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by ezbass

[Chienmortbb]

19 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Pre or post your speakers aren't going to sound the same as the PA, so it doesn't matter that much, as the board channel EQ likely won't be run flat anyway. Which means that your out front tone is at the mercy of the sound guy anyway...😫

You are quite right Bill. My "favourite" knob twiddler uses an overall 😊 EQ into a pair of Mackie Thump 15 tops. Needless to say whatever I send him, the bass sounds shite. I must admit I have switched the DI from Line level to Mic after sound  check and turned my amp up when he went for a comfort break. He did not notice.  Luckily I have a wireless system so I could walk out front and listen.

[Downunderwonder]

3 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Pre or post your speakers aren't going to sound the same as the PA, so it doesn't matter that much, as the board channel EQ likely won't be run flat anyway. Which means that your out front tone is at the mercy of the sound guy anyway...😫

Defeatist!

His cab is claimed FRFR so at least with post EQ he might have a fighting chance that the PA is EQ'd to the room and only minimal tweaking is required at FOH.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Wishful thinking, in no small part because the sound out in the room can vary wildly from the sound on stage. For that reason I do my personal sound check with a long enough cord so I can stand well out onto the dance floor. If that results in it being shite on stage I live with it, because what the audience hears matters far more than what I hear. If there is a knob twiddler in play I listen to his mix at the FOH to be sure he's not totally fouling up the works.

IME at even the highest echelons maybe half the FOH engineers get the bass right. Most of those who do are also either recording engineers or bass players, if not both. When faced with the option of either leaving a concert early or going medieval on the twiddler's buttocks it's almost always because he's ruined the bass mix. Come to think of it, the only recent exception was when I had to walk out on Willie Nelson. He's a genius writer, a good vocalist, but the worst guitar player I ever heard. I swear he played every song in a 7/11 time signature, even though his band was attempting to play in 4/4 despite him.

[Downunderwonder]

Ime the room only varies widely because FOH has boosted the hell out of the subs. 300 to 500 cap. concerts.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Technically speaking the primary reason the sound on stage and in the room is different is boundary reflection sourced cancellations. When the distances between you, the speaker and the walls and ceiling are relatively short these cancellations make the low end thin. Out in the audience, where those distances are much longer, cancellations aren't as severe, if they exist at all, and the low end is fuller. If you're boosting the lows to get a full tone on stage it can be too much out front. That doesn't mean twiddlers and their subs aren't a problem. They are, mainly because the range of subs goes a full octave lower than bass cabs. Sound men who know what they're doing account for that by high passing the bass channel strip somewhere between 60 to 80Hz.

[Muzz]

Our drummist is also a recording engineer who's been honing his skills while stuck in lockdown - at our first rehearsal last week he took my (Post-EQ (Stomp)) DI into the PA (with a HP set at about 70Hz), then I cut nearly all the bass out of my small onstage monitoring combo, and it sounded really, really good; no boom, no mud. He was then able to EQ for the room from the desk (OK, iPad). This is all on a very small scale, of course, but it illustrates Bill's point - just replicating stage sound to PA can cause problems in the bottom end without some clever adjustment...

[Lfalex v1.1]

I've always thought that Post-EQ DI was more for (studio) recording purposes, allowing the on-amp EQ to be used to capture a certain tone. 

In a gig scenario, Pre-EQ DI gives the desk a "flat" (er) signal  (dependent upon what EQ and effects are in play elsewhere in the signal chain)

Importantly, it frees up the on-amp EQ to help compensate for any on-stage sound issues you may have. (I'm looking at you, hollow, boomy stages!)

[Lozz196]

Those boomy stages are one of the reasons I used a pre-amp pedal. DI from the pedal so FOH gets the right bass sound (a flat eq Precision would have messed up the sound of our band beyond belief) and I could then use the eq in the amp to compensate for the stage/room for on stage sound.

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited March 14, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Chienmortbb]

On 28/05/2021 at 03:25, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Willie Nelson. He's a genius writer, a good vocalist, but the worst guitar player I ever heard. I swear he played every song in a 7/11 time signature, even though his band was attempting to play in 4/4 despite him.

I saw Kris Kristofferson in the 70s, he was a good songwritter but could not sing a note live.

[agedhorse]

On 22/06/2021 at 03:07, Chienmortbb said:

I saw Kris Kristofferson in the 70s, he was a good songwritter but could not sing a note live.

He was a great songwriter but in his later years both his playing and singing suffered. 

I worked with him several times as he was winding down his touring, people bought tickets more for the stories he told and his legend status than anything else. He is also a great guy to work with and his personality was an inviting aspect to his show.