Picture yourself in a three piece .... what's the guitarist playing?

[Fingul]

Misty for me. 

[NHM]

I play in a four piece classic-rock covers band, although the singer doesn't play an instrument so I guess I'm eligible to contribute to this thread...

The guitarist plays a Les Paul into a Marshall, he is a bit on the loud side but he makes a great sound so he gets some slack cut his way. The drummer is pretty loud too, so high volume is the band style and I just accept my lot and get on with it.

We recently did some recording, and I was really impressed at how much work the guitarist was doing to cover rhythm work with lead licks during verses, to keep the songs identity going alongside the rhythm/harmonic structure. I hadn't previously heard a lot of his detail when we play live. While I'm dum dumming along on for example lots of Ds then the odd C and G, he has covered a massive amount of material with great aplomb. We play covers from many bands who have a second guitar and/or a third and/or keys, and I take my hat off to him for his ability to still get the essence of the song. As we try to be reasonable faithful to the original, he gives me the spaces I expect to have to fill or contribute with details.

The real issue for me is when he solos, as the sound can suddenly empty. My instinct has always been to play low during solos but I've come to realise this might not be the best approach. I've found that one strategy to fill the sonic void left by him coming off rhythm work is for me to start playing high as he starts his solo, transitioning later to lower notes. This seems to smooth over the hole. I got the idea from Jack Bruce playing 'Crossroads' (ironic!) who starts one of the solos high and then moves low and this seems to make for a great blend from the verse and doesn't let the song go flat. I'd be interested to hear how other three-piece bassist scope with this 'emptying' of the sound during solos. Some songs it doesn't seem to matter, but in others the hole is glaring.

[NAS Bass]

This

[Munurmunuh]

23 minutes ago, NHM said:

I've found that one strategy to fill the sonic void left by him coming off rhythm work is for me to start playing high as he starts his solo, transitioning later to lower notes.

This is 100% me imagining it written down and 0% actual experience: if, say, the harmony is moving once every four beats, how would sound shifting up to territory around an octave higher for the middle two beats of each bar? That would have the actual bassline moving on the strong beat of the bar, and would also be creating an third voice in the middle of the texture. But maybe I'm just describing piano music, something that for guitar+bass would sound horribly fussy? If so, I would be glad to be told 😁

[Nail Soup]

47 minutes ago, NHM said:

I'd be interested to hear how other three-piece bassist scope with this 'emptying' of the sound during solos. Some songs it doesn't seem to matter, but in others the hole is glaring.

Good topic for a new thread @NHM - I may start it if you don't want to. Might even have been one before........

[fretmeister]

18 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

Agree, we were a 3 piece and that was something we were very conscious of avoiding, and did, but many 3 pieces don’t.

Instrument choice does help though, easier to get away with it with a Les Paul than a Strat (from my experience anyway, as a not that good guitarist).

I don’t think LP / Strat makes a blind bit of difference if the arrangement is right. I say that as someone who was the guitarist/ frontman in a 3 piece for years.

 

As it happens I find LP more comfortable to play but the rest of the band thought the strat sounded better with more clarity and note definition giving a richer sound rather than just all the mids.

[chris_b]

40 minutes ago, NHM said:

The real issue for me is when he solos, as the sound can suddenly empty. My instinct has always been to play low during solos but I've come to realise this might not be the best approach. I've found that one strategy to fill the sonic void left by him coming off rhythm work is for me to start playing high as he starts his solo, transitioning later to lower notes. This seems to smooth over the hole.

But it's not a hole. It's the dynamics of the song. You get more dynamics in a trio and that's one of the good things about them.

Imagine the band as a duo. Bass and drums are the sound of the band. Add the guitar on top. Then it's either chords or solos, or maybe nothing. There is no hole in the music, just places where the guitar parts change. Be brave and embrace the spaces. The spaces are as important as the full bore sections. Always filling out the sound takes away from the light and shade, ie dynamics, and flattens out the arrangement. That's not a good thing.

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited March 14, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Skybone]

We're still looking for a singist, so technically qualify as a 3 piece... honest. 

Guitarist plays a Les Paul usually into a solid state Marshall combo, but he used a DSL20 last time, and it sounded so much better than his battered combo. Need to try and convince him he needs one now! 😀 He does have other valve Marshall's, but they're probably a bit OTT.

[NHM]

Some interesting reflections on my point about songs going 'flat' during guitar solos when you're in a trio.

Actually it mostly doesn't worry me, I agree it's just part of the sound of being in a three and it should be valued. However, the issue comes from the guitarist (who is the band leader), who wants to add a second guitarist as he perceives we go 'flat' when he solos. Hence why I'm trying to find strategies to take his mind off hearing this and stop it blowing it up into a problem. I'm against moving to a four as I think it might spoil our distinct sound; there again it could be a good thing if we find the right person, who knows?

Whatever, it will take us ages to properly orchestrate a new band member in and will deflect from polishing our sets and playing gigs in the short term.

Nail Soup, please feel free to start a new thread if you wish, I won't feel I've been hijacked!

 

[casapete]

18 minutes ago, NHM said:

Some interesting reflections on my point about songs going 'flat' during guitar solos when you're in a trio.

Actually it mostly doesn't worry me, I agree it's just part of the sound of being in a three and it should be valued. However, the issue comes from the guitarist (who is the band leader), who wants to add a second guitarist as he perceives we go 'flat' when he solos. Hence why I'm trying to find strategies to take his mind off hearing this and stop it blowing it up into a problem. I'm against moving to a four as I think it might spoil our distinct sound; there again it could be a good thing if we find the right person, who knows?

Whatever, it will take us ages to properly orchestrate a new band member in and will deflect from polishing our sets and playing gigs in the short term.

Nail Soup, please feel free to start a new thread if you wish, I won't feel I've been hijacked!

 

If you're considering adding another guitar to the lineup, then make sure it works properly. Nothing more annoying than both guitarists blamming away playing the same chord inversions all the way through the song until the solo etc - two guitars are a thing of beauty IMHO, but only if they've been thought out properly. If in doubt, a keys player may be your best bet, and probably a quieter option too....😀

[Waddo Soqable]

Luckily our 3 piece didn't do guitar solos !.. It functioned very much along the lines that chris_b was talking about above, with the bass and drums being the main "thing" and the guitar selectively on top.

It was doubtless helped by the fact the guitarist was also the singer and didn't feel the need to indulge himself needlessly... Plus we all recognised the important thing in all this was that the music just worked...       I can see how it is no doubt extremely difficult to find a guitarist who can resit the urge to play absurdly loud just because they can, and know when to shut up and leave some  Space !

[Dad3353]

4 hours ago, NHM said:

...The real issue for me is when he solos, as the sound can suddenly empty...

There are so many 3-pieces where this doesn't happen, to use as models or inspiration. The Who..? Jimi Hendrix Experience..? Police..? Johnny Winter..? Led Zeppelin..? Tons more yet... As has been mentioned, several times, above, the dynamics, and making them work, are not only part of the fun, they're a major part of the fun..! Embrace the format, I'd say, and use its advantages as just that : advantages.

[Paul S]

27 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

There are so many 3-pieces where this doesn't happen, to use as models or inspiration. The Who..? Jimi Hendrix Experience..? Police..? Johnny Winter..? Led Zeppelin..? Tons more yet... As has been mentioned, several times, above, the dynamics, and making them work, are not only part of the fun, they're a major part of the fun..! Embrace the format, I'd say, and use its advantages as just that : advantages.

very much this.  I'd conspicuously add Free and Cream to the list too and also say that live albums are the ones to listen to as there are none of the overdubs you can often hear on studio albums.  ZZ Top are shockers for this but they still sound great live.  Free, in particular, have so much space in their live work you can drive a bus through it - a model of restraint.

[fleabag]

I've done the 3 piece thing,  with my mate the guitar man doing rhythm / solos / vocals  ( he was a long term pal before we started the band )

I guess i was lucky, as he wasn't an overly loud player.  He played loud enough to be heard though. 

Cover of Stone Free

 

StoneFree.mp3

[chris_b]

5 hours ago, NHM said:

. . . .  the issue comes from the guitarist (who is the band leader), who wants to add a second guitarist as he perceives we go 'flat' when he solos.

I'm not sure if you can do anything if this guy has a lack of confidence in his sound or playing.

I play occasionally with a guitarist who has the same problem. He adds a second guitarist on the better gigs, to "cover his back".  I can't do or say anything that will make him change his mind.

[NHM]

Our guitarist is very capable, it is an interesting thought that he may want a second to 'cover his back'. He doesn't need to, although it may be a confidence /perception issue.

I'm interested to explore the musicality around this. Of course there's lots of great three piece bands playing songs with structures where in the transition from verse into solo the role of the guitarist changes from, essentially, rhythm to lead. Do bass players change too at this point in the song? Does the bass player need to make any sort of adjustment to 'smooth' this transition? My experience has been that if I go low and the guitarist is high, there is a massive frequency gap left which can make a song suddenly feel empty with a sense that momentum is lost. 

So it's fine to say 'embrace it, it's what three pieces are all about'. But are there techniques the band can use to smooth this over when you'd expect there to be a rhythm guitar or keys also playing through the solo, as the original song was crafted for a four-piece?

Edited May 31, 2021 by NHM
didn't make my point clearly first time!

[Nail Soup]

34 minutes ago, NHM said:

So it's fine to say 'embrace it, it's what three pieces are all about'. But are there techniques the band can use to smooth this over when you'd expect there to be a rhythm guitar or keys also playing through the solo, as the original song was crafted for a four-piece?

Thread created 👍

[NHM]

well let's wait for the wisdom to emerge!