Is now good time to be buying 'quality' musical instruments

[drTStingray]

2 hours ago, Jus Lukin said:

As a jobbing player, just getting back to earning, and still perhaps considering selling some of my fancier basses, all I can say to this thread is... 'ouch'.

I only need an instrument to do what's required, regardless of name or cost, but I also try to sell at a fair and reasonable price.

Everyone loves a bargain, but... is this a thread about revelling in the fact that tax paying musos who've recently been getting by on 70-80% of their earnings averaged over the last four years are perhaps in a position to have to sell great instruments at cut prices?

Whether prices have actually dropped or not, it feels pretty callous.

I certainly am very conscious there are people in the position you’ve described and really empathise with that  - however the point I’ve been making is it seems the price of instruments is on the up - including used as shown in cases in this thread - in the case of used Wal basses, they are now changing hands for in excess (way in excess in the US) of the price of a new one. So sellers, if they can find a buyer, should get a good price for a used instrument. 

I bought a used bog standard 3 band Ray in a nice colour, a bit battered for around £750 in 2014 - I wouldn’t expect to pay under £1000 for the same thing now, and significantly more if it was a Classic, Special or any other version out of the ordinary. Without wishing to appear disrespectful £600 for a used Ray seems cloud cuckoo land to me - they were £750 used back in the mid 2000s (15 yrs + ago) - £750 new in the early 90s - £600 may get you a used US Sub 5 these days. 

As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, look at the prices for used basses achieved in commission sales in various well known shops if you want to see realistic prices achieved (the seller clearly pays commission but taking that into account the prices are, in some cases, significantly different from what might be achieved here - the demographics of a forum may be far more specific than retail outlets, which may have a broader base - and many of the instruments listed do appear to sell - in the case of the rare ones I’m interested in - before I get the chance to buy them it seems 😩 !!!)

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by drTStingray

[tegs07]

8 hours ago, Jus Lukin said:

As a jobbing player, just getting back to earning, and still perhaps considering selling some of my fancier basses, all I can say to this thread is... 'ouch'.

I only need an instrument to do what's required, regardless of name or cost, but I also try to sell at a fair and reasonable price.

Everyone loves a bargain, but... is this a thread about revelling in the fact that tax paying musos who've recently been getting by on 70-80% of their earnings averaged over the last four years are perhaps in a position to have to sell great instruments at cut prices?

Whether prices have actually dropped or not, it feels pretty callous.

I take your point but would also add that if someone needs to sell something quickly to raise cash being all moralistic and saying no sorry I can’t buy for ethical reasons is not going to be of much help to them either.

[Doddy]

17 hours ago, TJ1 said:

That is those basses or other instruments of a professional or posh standard, because of the effects of the lockdown on live musicians and the fact that affluent amateurs may have to be cutting back:

I don't think that's the reason there are nice instruments for sale. I know of a lot of working musicians who have had to sell off some gear because of the lack of work and/or getting screwed over by the SEISS payments. On the opposite side, Fender have just had their best year ever, and a couple of luthiers who I've spoken to said that they have been busier than usual.  

Gear is obviously selling, but it appears to be mainly working players who are selling through necessity rather than affluent amateurs cutting back.

 

[Supernaut]

Fender's prices were already ridiculous before Covid! 

[Acebassmusic]

"....sell at a fair and reasonable price....." What may be a fair and resonable price for one buyer / seller may not be for another as basses tend to be very personal items. I've seen posts of people lusting after year of birth Fender Jazz's for thousands (yes, multiple times the value that you could have bought them for in the 70's & 80's). Does that make the seller a rip off merchant? Nope, it means theres a market for that bass and someone is happy to pay the money. I doubt there's many of us who if we found such a bass "under the bed" would advertise it on here for under market value!

Over the years of buying and selling gear I have had the good fortune of making on some deals. I had a Pedulla Pentabuzz which I sold at a profit of 30% 😮 Does this make me a rip off merchant? Again, nope as the market value was up. The very same bass came up for sale in the last 2 years at over twice the price I sold it for! 😮 Does this make the sellar a rip off merchant? Again, nope as it reflected the current market value and what someone was willing to pay.

....And for balance I've also lost on deals. So, did someone else rip me off? Nope, they got a good deal whilst I took the pragmatic approach that if bills need paying, gear will be sold. I would rather have as little debt as possible than squeeze the last $ out of an item I NEED to sell.

There have been some good deals on here over the last year where people have advertised basses at what I would regard as under market value (again very subjective to personal likes / dislikes). I bet no-one has gone to the sellar and said "Sorry I cant pay you £1,000 for that bass, it's worth at least £1,250....here's the extra" 🤣

I suppose my answer to the OP - I don't see the current market as being a special time for buying. There are some good deals out there but that's no different to other years, you just keep your eye open and something will come up. As for selling, I think it is slower than usual, which over time could lead to some deals being available but I wouldn't hold my breath. I've also noticed for sale trends that some months theres a flotilla of Fodera's for sale and the next a stable of Sue Ryders. This may just be one of those times when there are more "professional or posh standard" basses available. Gigs are hopefully on the horizon and "normal trading will resume" 😁

Now, if any of you have a Fodera Emperor 5 available, drop me a PM as I have a spare £500 to spend 🤣🤣🤣

[tegs07]

15 minutes ago, Supernaut said:

Fender's prices were already ridiculous before Covid! 

I think Fenders prices are about what I would expect them to be from an historical perspective. If you don’t want to pay the brand tax but want a “Fender” just get a Squire.

Same analogy with Audi/VW and SEAT/Skoda. Bit less brand and luxury trim same basic vehicle but suffers on the resale market.

Edited June 1, 2021 by tegs07

[TJ1]

11 hours ago, Jus Lukin said:

 

Everyone loves a bargain, but... is this a thread about revelling in the fact that tax paying musos who've recently been getting by on 70-80% of their earnings averaged over the last four years are perhaps in a position to have to sell great instruments at cut prices?

Whether prices have actually dropped or not, it feels pretty callous.

Many apologies if the original question contains any form of enjoyment at the possible plight of hard working musicians, that was not the intent.

But way back in the late 1700's at the time of the French Revolution: (which at the time was probably seen to be similarly traumatic as COVID is now) -Baron Rothschild said 'Always buy when there's blood on the streets', & I believe there some kind of basic but dangerous truth to that statement.

[Cat Burrito]

I had an accident at work during lockdown and had a bit of a payout. I always wanted an Orange AD200B head. Normally £1750, I picked up an immaculate 2 month old one for about half that. Granted it hasn't had a load of use yet but the moment will come.

[Al Krow]

4 hours ago, TJ1 said:

Many apologies if the original question contains any form of enjoyment at the possible plight of hard working musicians, that was not the intent.

But way back in the late 1700's at the time of the French Revolution: (which at the time was probably seen to be similarly traumatic as COVID is now) -Baron Rothschild said 'Always buy when there's blood on the streets', & I believe there some kind of basic but dangerous truth to that statement.

Pricing will ultimately boil down to supply and demand with some new factors affecting that mix. 

Right now used car sales prices are going up!! (Due to a shortage of silicon chips used in making new cars). Not sure too many folk saw that one coming. 

In terms of demand, well we have a 20% VAT price "wall" around the UK on imported used basses from the EU (and vice versa) which is taking a lot of used basses off the table in both directions. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Al Krow

[paul_c2]

In answer to the OP - not really.

The time to buy was about 2 years ago, before Brexit and Covid when everything was pretty much flowing smoothly for imports and exports and there was no massive spikes in demand or weird unpredictable changes in the economy. Prices were steadily rising then but there were bargains to be found.

[martthebass]

16 hours ago, bigthumb said:

I recently bought a secondhand Rickenbacker 4003 for 1500 quid. To me a sh!t load of money but probably a good investment. 

I recently had someone enquiring after my fairly mint 4003....he was genuinely shocked that I wouldn’t accept £1100 for it. I told him he’d be searching a long time.

[itu]

After the quarantine happened, I saw here and there that cheapo basic basses (Fender, Squier, Tokai, Warwick...) started a slow but steady rise in price. I was a bit amazed that those simple workhorses got so much interest. But on the other hand high end instruments started to show up with very attractive prices. I was very close to sell my kidneys for a custom Overwater that was under £1 k!

The price range seemed to become compressed: cheapo ones raised their price and vice versa. After the vaccination started there is less low priced high end gear, but it is possible to do a good deal every now and then. I do an educated guess that many professionals sold their gear just because the state did not help them. Hopefully people did not have to sell their last tools to keep themselves alive and well.

[Mykesbass]

56 minutes ago, itu said:

 I was very close to sell my kidneys for a custom Overwater that was under £1 k!

Well it is obviously a good time to buy kidneys - they were fetching over £3k (each) back in 1989!

[neilp]

It's worth remembering that a lot of folk have spent a great deal of money acquiring large numbers of basses - many more than they actually need to cover every genre of music in existence! That is absolutely fine and a choice that we're all entitled to make, but when hard times come and you find that you don't have savings to fall back on, it's probably worth regarding the dozens of basses you've acquired over the years as your savings. And because they are consumer goods, and subject to the normal rules of supply and demand, you might find you would have been better off stashing the fivers under your bed. You might not, of course, but that's a chance you take when you "invest" in things like basses.

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited March 14, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[warwickhunt]

On 31/05/2021 at 21:02, warwickhunt said:

A quick look back through sales ads on BC and you'd find that a couple of years ago, £1k for a Ray would be expensive (£800 was an average price)!  I recall seeing a few go on eBay for £700ish... folks are nearly asking that for none USA models now.  

Oh and a pukka USA Sunburst Ray with case was just advertised and sold 15 miles from me for £750... maybe we all have it wrong and we see what we want to see.    

 

[tegs07]

On 01/06/2021 at 18:43, Jus Lukin said:

There are plenty of quotations similar to the one from Baron Rothschild- I'm sure Machiavelli has few crackers on the subject. If that's the angle you are coming from, then it is a good time to buy, in the same way (but less drastic) that 1929-33 was a 'good' time to buy farmland in the US. Personally, I abhor that kind of kick-'em-when-they're-down capitalism, but it does have a pretty big following around the globe.

I would consider that a sad time to be able to buy at lowered prices- but that sure ain't the Rothschild way.

From a moral perspective you are absolutely correct but from a practical perspective when someone buys a depreciating asset the risk is transferred to them. It was worth Y it’s now worth X it may eventually be worth Z.
Z could ultimately be higher or lower depending on personal or historical circumstance. 
 

That said it’s been a sorry couple of years for many many people and anyone impacted has my sympathy. I am replying from an economic rather than a humanist perspective. This is how economics works. I remember discussing the ethics of companies exploiting areas blighted by natural disasters. My perspective was it was evil. A friend who makes his living in finance pointed out it was necessary. The risk of trading in these areas was high as crime and population loss was rife. If the exploiting companies didn’t offset the risk they wouldn’t bother. If they didn’t bother supplies wouldn’t exist and the situation would never return to normal as competitors lured by profit wouldn’t move in. As enough companies moved in they would all have to adjust prices to be competitive and a normal market would eventually be established. Anyhow off topic. I would still maintain that now is a good time to invest in quality instruments. Normality will eventually come round.

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by tegs07

[Telebass]

On 31/05/2021 at 16:52, TJ1 said:

instruments of a professional or posh standard

No such thing. If you're happy with your kit and it does the job, then it's as professional and posh as it needs to be. Amp and speakers must obviously be able to do whats needed. My main, in fact only, bass is a parts bass. Best I've ever used, bar one, which was another parts bass I stupidly sold...

[tegs07]

2 minutes ago, Telebass said:

No such thing. If you're happy with your kit and it does the job, then it's as professional and posh as it needs to be. Amp and speakers must obviously be able to do whats needed. My main, in fact only, bass is a parts bass. Best I've ever used, bar one, which was another parts bass I stupidly sold...

No such thing to a musician. Definitely such a thing to a collector. Both my favourite bases are not worth much. One is a Bitsa I have devalued, one is a brand associated with producing dross.

[Telebass]

5 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

Definitely such a thing to a collector.

Definitely only talking musicians here, in terms of what I said. A collector is not even neccessarily a musician.

[tegs07]

I think TJ1 has started the thread more from investment than muso perspective.

[drTStingray]

4 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

Oh and a pukka USA Sunburst Ray with case was just advertised and sold 15 miles from me for £750... maybe we all have it wrong and we see what we want to see.    

 

Well that is quite bonkers!! I paid £750 for a used one in 2005 and that is 16 yrs ago…..someone has a bargain there. I wouldn’t sell any of mine for that price as they simply are worth more (both to me and based on the market). 

As I have said earlier, prices are generally increasing - but there will always be outliers (not least if people are desperate to sell - or there’s a pink torpedo up in valuation by the seller - I do recall a couple of years back someone saying they’d bought a US Sub for a price more appropriate to an import Sub). 

Car prices are another good pointer……. the worry is this is all the tip of an iceberg and the supply problems will inflate prices of everything and thus fuel inflation - I’m sure there are others who remember the days of 15% per annum being the norm. 

[peteb]

29 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

Well that is quite bonkers!! I paid £750 for a used one in 2005 and that is 16 yrs ago…..someone has a bargain there. I wouldn’t sell any of mine for that price as they simply are worth more (both to me and based on the market). 

As I have said earlier, prices are generally increasing - but there will always be outliers (not least if people are desperate to sell - or there’s a pink torpedo up in valuation by the seller - I do recall a couple of years back someone saying they’d bought a US Sub for a price more appropriate to an import Sub). 

Car prices are another good pointer……. the worry is this is all the tip of an iceberg and the supply problems will inflate prices of everything and thus fuel inflation - I’m sure there are others who remember the days of 15% per annum being the norm. 

I think that you and a few others are over estimating the value of s/h Stingrays. About nine months or so ago, I picked up a very nice Ray (without a case) for the equivalent of £750 . I have seen people advertise them for much more, but they seem to hang around for ever at the prices they ask. In the past year, I tried to sell a 5H for £1,050 on FB / Reverb, etc but people kept offering me bids in the region of £900 (I ended up selling it on commission at Bass Direct).  

I don't know why more people aren't going for 4H Stingrays secondhand - biggest bargain out there at the moment! 

Edited June 14, 2021 by peteb

[Eldon Tyrell]

24 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

As I have said earlier, prices are generally increasing - but there will always be outliers (not least if people are desperate to sell - or there’s a pink torpedo up in valuation by the seller - I do recall a couple of years back someone saying they’d bought a US Sub for a price more appropriate to an import Sub). 

Sorry, could not resist 😉

 

[DubDelay]

I love trading basses and guitars (mostly low end) as I try to build up a studio on a showstring. For the last year some prices seemed high but I’d say it’s levelling off now a bit, there’s still always the bargain ‘quitars’ and the odd deal where the person is not interested in waiting for a good price. If you’re quick you can always jump on those be sure to get your money back if it’s not a keeper. I’d be much more cautious buying high end gear as I don’t know enough about it all and that could be painful. But I’d say the restricted supply of new gear is inflating the prices of some secondhand gear and that could go back the other way.