General decline of standards

[molan]

Feels to me like there's something of a polarisation of standards amongst younger musicians.

The good ones are phenomenal technically, the stuff I hear being played by some everyday '20 somethings' is nothing short of amazing compared to what I remember from about 30 or so years ago.

Meanwhile the ability of a decent engineer & a Pro Tools expert means that a lot of stuff can be 'fixed in the mix' and there are some musicians recording stuff that's not well played, or even remotely in time, but that can be made to sound great after some serious processing.

Of course both of these examples have been around for a long time but it seems to me like the extremes are more pronounced now than they've ever been.

[slaphappygarry]

[quote]Its amazing for mastering....it saves time,but if you cant mic properly..play in time...tune up ...without digital assistance,WITHOUT the ability to do such a thing without un-natural aid..learning the intricacies of a room,the way a mic...even mics of the same brand ,behave....do you really think that digital is going to fix that?.[/quote]

Mastering should be a real time process and is the only part of the production process I, personally, would like the processing 100% analogue.

And, as far as I am concerned (22 year old full time professional engineer) to say digital is bad an analog is good is like saying a stool is good and a sofa is bad. Functionally they do the same thing (a storage medium) and are, IMHO, the least important factor in recording. IMHO it goes like this:

-Musician
-Instrument
-Room
-Mic
-Pre amp
-Converter (Tape can be substituted here)
-DAW

The first 4 substantially affect the sound you are tracking. The later 3 are subtle and, in some cases, questionable.

I am really into this stuff and feel I am misreading your posts so, if you want to discuss this further, drop me a PM.

G

[slaphappygarry]

[quote]Meanwhile the ability of a decent engineer & a Pro Tools expert means that a lot of stuff can be 'fixed in the mix' and there are some musicians recording stuff that's not well played, or even remotely in time, but that can be made to sound great after some serious processing.[/quote]

Been there done it. At this stage it is damage limitation. Auto-tune, heavy editing, quantizing, all that stuff leaves nasty artifacts and fingerprints that never go away. Lets also be clear that all these things were possible with analog albeit slower. Pitch shifting and tape slicing...



[quote]when you have a lad that clicks a mouse button to add room ambience,over simply moving the Mic,you have a problem[/quote]

I fully agree. I hate fighting with things when I mix. The better I record things the less time i need to agonize over things later. Get it right at source and it is right.

G

Edited March 28, 2009 by slaphappygarry

[escholl]

[quote name='ARGH' post='448249' date='Mar 28 2009, 06:04 PM']Protools has destroyed microphone technique.[/quote]

It most certainly has not. And yes -- I did read your posts after that.

The problem is not DAWs, it's the fact that universities can't be bothered to teach people correctly anymore -- people who then, somehow? go on to get jobs in the industry.

Which only makes it more frustrating for those of us who DO know what we're doing. But being the soundman at some sh***y pub is not nearly on the same level as being a recording engineer at a major (or even a smaller) studio, and the quality there hasn't dropped at all -- in fact, I think you'll find much the opposite.

[queenofthedepths]

Standards in nu-metal have dropped rapidly since 20 years ago??

[Pissman]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='448379' date='Mar 28 2009, 08:43 PM']Standards in nu-metal have dropped rapidly since 20 years ago??[/quote]

There were Nu-metal bands in 1989?

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='Pissman' post='448401' date='Mar 28 2009, 09:13 PM']There were Nu-metal bands in 1989?[/quote]
If there were, perhaps the genre needs a new name?

[budget bassist]

[quote name='ARGH' post='448348' date='Mar 28 2009, 07:50 PM']I know you didnt,I was paraphrasing the Teacher that was talking to me....


My friends in the same sort of thing as you,his is film/tv score and production...at Leeds,and he is like you learning digital,because the work is on that scale..small,in the home studio.

My snipey comment was about 'Popular' music courses in the UK.[/quote]
Fair enough, but the thing is, they have to teach you the digital methods because that's what the whole industry is using now

[ARGH]

[quote name='budget bassist' post='448423' date='Mar 28 2009, 10:15 PM']Fair enough, but the thing is, they have to teach you the digital methods because that's what the whole industry is using now[/quote]
Of course...to teach pure analogue (Have you ever split tape? I have..I am that old!) would be silly in this day and age.

[ARGH]

[quote name='Pissman' post='448401' date='Mar 28 2009, 09:13 PM']There were Nu-metal bands in 1989?[/quote]
The reaction was Power/Trad.....

[The Funk]

I'd say the only thing that's changed is the number of ideas has dropped: good and bad. Everyone plays it safe by copying the other thing that sounds ok because it kinda sounds like that other thing that came out once that was good.

The ratio of good band members to a band has probably dropped too. You don't get bands like [i]Deep Purple[/i] anymore, where everyone's actually pretty good. Most young bands I've seen have been carried by one overly talented person. The other young bands I've seen have a few excellent players in the band but crap, uninspired songs.

Everyone's afraid of not making any money from music because the music industry is dead, so everyone's more desperate to be accepted. As I see it, jazz, blues, rock n' roll and metal were never about being accepted or playing it safe.

Cream lyricist Pete Brown blames the '80s for killing music, when record companies tried to force punk and disco together. Jack Black's character in [i]School Of Rock[/i] blames MTV (as did Biggles and possibly Dire Straits). The record companies blame the internet while putting out samples of samples of covers by fakes. The artists blame the record companies while spending more time on a music video than on making the record or trying to write a decent song. The fans don't treat music as an art form anymore, they don't treat it as a product anymore, they treat it as an instantly disposable passing distraction.

I don't think there's a general decline in standards. I think the days of music as a business are over. It's sad but I've come to terms with it. Ironically there's never been a better opportunity for an overall rise in standards. If we all accept we're not going to make any money from this (with a very small number of exceptions) we can be freed from having to worry about impressing the people with the chequebooks and focus instead on trying to make music we love that we think is as good as the stuff we listen to at home.

Edited March 29, 2009 by The Funk

[The Burpster]

[quote name='peteb' post='448005' date='Mar 28 2009, 01:16 PM']I was talking to an old friend in a pub the other night who works ‘in the industry’, pretty much as a freelance A&R type (for both indie and major labels) and in artiste management. He was drinking with a guy who manages lots of nu metal type bands (some that you may have heard of) and who has had some degree of success.

Anyway, my mate said that I would be shocked at the level of playing of the bands that he deals with (we’re talking about mainly rock and metal here) and that standards have dropped dramatically from when I was around 20 years ago!

So, is he right? Is it true that the 20 somethings can’t play as well as their counterparts from 10 or 20 years ago?[/quote]

Pete,

If you beileve my g'tarist there has been little 'talented' music made since 1975.........

In some ways I have an elemnet of agreement with him but otherways, he is sooo wrong.

I feel the fundamental differance between now and then was that rather than know the physics of sound creation, artists honed their craft to perfection and played more.....

Now music is broken down into channels and frequencies, and can be 'cleaned up' digitally..... negating the need to be perfect craftsmen of thier tools....

does this make young musicians lazy? No just different......

I feel that now is just a diferent time, with WAaaaay more information available, and in some ways its too easy.....

Just my view FWIW.

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='The Funk' post='448496' date='Mar 29 2009, 05:22 AM']I'd say the only thing that's changed is the number of ideas has dropped: good and bad. Everyone plays it safe by copying the other thing that sounds ok because it kinda sounds like that other thing that came out once that was good.

The ratio of good band members to a band has probably dropped too. You don't get bands like [i]Deep Purple[/i] anymore, where everyone's actually pretty good. Most young bands I've seen have been carried by one overly talented person. The other young bands I've seen have a few excellent players in the band but crap, uninspired songs.

Everyone's afraid of not making any money from music because the music industry is dead, so everyone's more desperate to be accepted. As I see it, jazz, blues, rock n' roll and metal were never about being accepted or playing it safe.

Cream lyricist Pete Brown blames the '80s for killing music, when record companies tried to force punk and disco together. Jack Black's character in [i]School Of Rock[/i] blames MTV (as did Biggles and possibly Dire Straits). The record companies blame the internet while putting out samples of samples of covers by fakes. The artists blame the record companies while spending more time on a music video than on making the record or trying to write a decent song. The fans don't treat music as an art form anymore, they don't treat it as a product anymore, they treat it as an instantly disposable passing distraction.

I don't think there's a general decline in standards. I think the days of music as a business are over. It's sad but I've come to terms with it. Ironically there's never been a better opportunity for an overall rise in standards. If we all accept we're not going to make any money from this (with a very small number of exceptions) we can be freed from having to worry about impressing the people with the chequebooks and focus instead on trying to make music we love that we think is as good as the stuff we listen to at home.[/quote]
A big +1 from me - couldn't agree more.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='YouMa' post='448221' date='Mar 28 2009, 06:32 PM']kids are just empty vessels[/quote]



Pervert.

[Delberthot]

To paraphrase Eric Clapton "There was as much cr@p in the 60s as there is now".

I think we had a period in the 90s where a lot of what was coming out in the mainstream was simple and straightforward. usually when you are growing up you listen to the stuff that's in the charts and learn from that so we had bass players who, for arguments sake, Listened to Oasis. Their bass lines tend to be very straigtforward to learn. Said bass players learn these songs and then think they're good. Not that there's anything wrong with Oasis, I don't like their music but a lot of people do.

I think its all down to what you listen to, aspire to and what you set yourself as the benchmark that you are going to go for.

When I was growing up, there were very little talented musicians in my area and its still the same. If I had set my benchmark as being as good or as fast or whatever as my peers then I wouldn't be as good as I am now.

Its a sad fact and not a boast that I have never heard another bass player who is anywhere near as good as me in my area which is sad. There are very few musicians in general in my area which are any good. That is from all age groups, not just the youngsters. I have had to rely on a very small number of guitarists and drummers to spur me on and evolve.

In fact, the best guitarist in my area is mentally ill, is on prozak, carries a dentist kit so he can give himself fillings and has a dreadlock called Keith. I've not seen him in years but we used to trade riffs each other all the time and spur each other on. Fantastic guitarist, mad as a box of frogs.

I have no idea where I am going with this as I have a gargantuan hangover

[Bobo_Grimmer]

Here's my idea. I'm only 24 and i've been lucky enough to have played with a few different types of players and have seen qute a few local gigs ect. What i'm not feeling much of in new young bands now is 'feel'. To me music, as i'm discovering, is a way so express emotion. it's not something that can be 'this way' or 'that way' it's not black or white. Feeling is what the younger musicians are missing or not fully grasping maybe. We get so much info on technique and the right and wrong ways to play stuffed in our faces that alot of younger players completely miss the point to music.

Or I may just be another young person.......remember just because you've played a guitar for 35 years does not make you a good player? Then the question arises What's a good player? ect ect.

[jonny-lad]

[quote name='Bobo_Grimmer' post='448718' date='Mar 29 2009, 03:27 PM']What i'm not feeling much of in new young bands now is 'feel'.[/quote]

+1

I'm 22 and one thing I often find lacking in young musicians is the ability to work effectively as part of a band. Being able to listen to what's going on when playing with a band and adapting to different drummers differences in style, locking in with the rhythm section, and fitting in in the mix seem to get overlooked a bit.

I think technology, access to backing tracks, tuitional aids, recording equipment, drum loops and so forth means that there is less emphasis placed on live playing with a band and therefore less emphasis on developing good feel. Of course, all these advances have positive uses aswell, but it's still important to play with real people just as much to develop as a musician.

I also find that there are great young musicians around, but they often aren't the ones getting all the attention because that's not what it's about for them...they are often out doing their own thing, improving themselves, working outside their local area, meeting different people on different scenes and constantly finding new challenges.

[escholl]

[quote name='jonny-lad' post='448751' date='Mar 29 2009, 04:28 PM']I'm 22 and one thing I often find lacking in young musicians is the ability to work effectively as part of a band. Being able to listen to what's going on when playing with a band and adapting to different drummers differences in style, locking in with the rhythm section, and fitting in in the mix seem to get overlooked a bit.[/quote]

completely agree.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Pissman' post='448401' date='Mar 28 2009, 10:13 PM']There were Nu-metal bands in 1989?
[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='448407' date='Mar 28 2009, 10:28 PM']
If there were, perhaps the genre needs a new name?[/quote][/quote]

A lot of metal genres need new names. It's funny that being "Progressive" now means recreating music from the '70s.

[ARGH]

[quote name='jonny-lad' post='448751' date='Mar 29 2009, 04:28 PM']I'm 22 and one thing I often find lacking in young musicians is the ability to work effectively as part of a band. Being able to listen to what's going on when playing with a band and adapting to different drummers differences in style, locking in with the rhythm section, and fitting in in the mix seem to get overlooked a bit.[/quote]
Its taking producers to bring this back,esp in 'Heavy' genres.

[johnnylager]

I believe random access media have seriously impacted the quality of tunes coming out. In the good old days of vinyl and even cassette, one tended to listen all the way to the end of a side or album and it had to stand on the merits of the weakest track. Now one merely skips the duffers or doesn't even load 'em onto the mp3 player. Possibly - discuss.

EDIT: I am sure I'm as guilty as anyone else of doing it though.

Edited March 29, 2009 by johnnylager

[M4L666]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='448782' date='Mar 29 2009, 05:13 PM']A lot of metal genres need new names. It's funny that being "Progressive" now means recreating music from the '70s.[/quote]
Agreed. If metalcore was actually metallic hardcore, I'd be it's biggest fan.

[Buzz]

In music in general, I blame Pete Waterman and the Hit Factory.

They started, honed and perfected the formulatic approach that overran the mainstream media. It also made them very rich, so can't fault them.

[peteb]

[quote name='The Burpster' post='448507' date='Mar 29 2009, 08:38 AM']Pete,

If you beileve my g'tarist there has been little 'talented' music made since 1975.........

In some ways I have an elemnet of agreement with him but otherways, he is sooo wrong.

I feel the fundamental differance between now and then was that rather than know the physics of sound creation, artists honed their craft to perfection and played more.....

Now music is broken down into channels and frequencies, and can be 'cleaned up' digitally..... negating the need to be perfect craftsmen of thier tools....

does this make young musicians lazy? No just different......

I feel that now is just a diferent time, with WAaaaay more information available, and in some ways its too easy.....

Just my view FWIW.[/quote]
Just to clarify, we were not saying that young musicians are less creative than they used to be or that they can’t write good songs. It was just a narrow conversation about a general lowering of standards of live performance of young rock / metal bands and the lack of the technical ability these days required to create the type of music that thisnameistaken hates!

I’m sure that there are many reasons for this: new technology, emergence of types of music that require different skills, other distractions (games, etc) and just that type of playing going out of fashion.

For example, I think that Oasis are a great rock and roll band (you may disagree but that isn’t the point) – exciting, great songs and above all they inspired lots of people to pick up an instrument and play in a band. However, to compare them with say a band like Extreme (to pick a name out of thin air); well there are no Nuno Bettencourts or Pat Badgers in Oasis! If you were motivated to start playing by Oasis it is unlikely that you will aspire to the same level of technical ability than a kid for whom the spark was first lit by listening to Decadence Dance!

[Shonks]

I agree with Oscar South - there are some frighteningly amazing young players out there - and frighteningly crap ones too.
But the new young talent that is good, Is Good!!!!