General decline of standards

[ARGH]

You are basically wondering where all the 'good' musicians in Metal went since Grunge turned up.


Scandinavia.....The 'Black' metal guys could write.....Emperor,Marduk (B-War was an amazing Bassist) ,At The Gates (became The Haunted),Dissection (Storm of the light's bane)....

The Brits got obsessed with the Yank trackie and trainers gang...Kinda the wrong direction from Pantera...into Korn...Sepultura wandered off the point with Chaos A.D,then really split opinion with Roots....White Zombie,Fear Factory....even Prong....

the underground was all what was left.....Those bands had better success in Europe,than back home.

[ARGH]

[quote name='Shonks' post='448971' date='Mar 29 2009, 09:16 PM']I agree with Oscar South - there are some frighteningly amazing young players out there - and frighteningly crap ones too.
But the new young talent that is good, Is Good!!!![/quote]
Its always been like that,regardless of style...The good ones DO get noticed.

[Shonks]

[quote name='ARGH' post='448983' date='Mar 29 2009, 09:25 PM']Its always been like that,regardless of style...The good ones DO get noticed.[/quote]

innit tho'

[escholl]

[quote name='johnnylager' post='448947' date='Mar 29 2009, 08:44 PM']I believe random access media have seriously impacted the quality of tunes coming out. In the good old days of vinyl and even cassette, one tended to listen all the way to the end of a side or album and it had to stand on the merits of the weakest track. Now one merely skips the duffers or doesn't even load 'em onto the mp3 player. Possibly - discuss.

EDIT: I am sure I'm as guilty as anyone else of doing it though.[/quote]

Since i've realized this a few years ago, i've made a point of listening to albums all the way through now, and in the right order -- after all, a lot of work usually goes into that.

And you know, it's funny, i can't stand to listen to tracks on shuffle anymore!

Of course, some albums are still rubbish, and don't flow well, and have lots of bad songs -- but those bands are usually crap, so i don't tend to listen to them in the first place ^_^

[YouMa]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='448672' date='Mar 29 2009, 12:47 PM']Pervert.[/quote]


I was wondering who would get there first.

[ARGH]

[quote name='escholl' post='449091' date='Mar 29 2009, 11:28 PM']Since i've realized this a few years ago, i've made a point of listening to albums all the way through now, and in the right order -- after all, a lot of work usually goes into that.

And you know, it's funny, i can't stand to listen to tracks on shuffle anymore!

Of course, some albums are still rubbish, and don't flow well, and have lots of bad songs -- but those bands are usually crap, so i don't tend to listen to them in the first place ^_^[/quote]
Its not often I hear a REALLY strong lp these days.....All killer ,no filler...

[escholl]

[quote name='ARGH' post='449134' date='Mar 30 2009, 12:33 AM']Its not often I hear a REALLY strong lp these days.....All killer ,no filler...[/quote]


plenty good ones out there. just have to know where to look.

[ARGH]

[quote name='escholl' post='449141' date='Mar 30 2009, 12:42 AM']plenty good ones out there. just have to know where to look.[/quote]
Yeah But Im jaded and everything sounds the same or like summat Ive heard before!!

(John Peel,comes to mind...in 40 odd years of broadcasting said that only Roxy ever sounded like nothing he had heard of before)

[captain black]

I've noticed a proliferation in the numbers of 'Dads Bands' around at the minute.
You can see them all over. They're young.
Their dads ferry them to 'gigs' and set the gear up for them while they stand around looking vaguely interested.
They spend the whole night playing power chords learnt from Tab off the internet while adoring jailbait looks on.
The dads stand at the back nodding all the way through and then pack up the gear at the end.
The upshot?
It's all done for them!
They haven't had to do it for themselves.
As a kid I had to bus 6 miles to practices then carry my amp and bass about a mile (stopping for many rests) so that by the time I got there I could hardly play.
When you learnt your favourite songs you had to LISTEN to the Record ...NO REALLY LISTEN and work out what was going on.
You learnt the subtleties. You learnt your trade. You couldn't just google it.
So I think your answer lies in the fact that the future generation of bands are missing out on the 'serving your time' part.
Also the standard of affordable guitars and basses you learnt on back then, or should I say Planks (hondo etc.), was pretty poor in comparison to what young 'uns have today (not that Dad hasn't bought them a Les Paul anyway).
Anyway....Rant over.

Ps. Apologies to anyone who helps out with their son's band but you get my point.

[The Funk]

[quote name='captain black' post='449161' date='Mar 30 2009, 01:41 AM']I've noticed a proliferation in the numbers of 'Dads Bands' around at the minute.
You can see them all over. They're young.
Their dads ferry them to 'gigs' and set the gear up for them while they stand around looking vaguely interested.
They spend the whole night playing power chords learnt from Tab off the internet while adoring jailbait looks on.
The dads stand at the back nodding all the way through and then pack up the gear at the end.
The upshot?
It's all done for them!
They haven't had to do it for themselves.
As a kid I had to bus 6 miles to practices then carry my amp and bass about a mile (stopping for many rests) so that by the time I got there I could hardly play.
When you learnt your favourite songs you had to LISTEN to the Record ...NO REALLY LISTEN and work out what was going on.
You learnt the subtleties. You learnt your trade. You couldn't just google it.
So I think your answer lies in the fact that the future generation of bands are missing out on the 'serving your time' part.
Also the standard of affordable guitars and basses you learnt on back then, or should I say Planks (hondo etc.), was pretty poor in comparison to what young 'uns have today (not that Dad hasn't bought them a Les Paul anyway).
Anyway....Rant over.

Ps. Apologies to anyone who helps out with their son's band but you get my point.[/quote]

I agree with you completely. I remember just how long it took me to carry a tiny Fender practice bass amp from Camden Town to Kentish Town on foot. Over an hour. And by the end, I couldn't move either arm. And I remember trying to walk down the windy staircase at the back of the old Route Masters with a school bag in one hand, practice amp in the other and bass over my shoulder as the bus reached the stop. It took a lot to keep from falling down and breaking everything!

Amyway, as my mate Pete Brown says, at some point in the early '80s, the middle end of the live market just disappeared and you either had toilet or Wembley. If it wasn't for a certain amount of dads' help, a lot of bands playing the toilets just wouldn't be able to do it. Bands making 3 figure losses a night playing the toilet circuit - it's just not right! Most of the acts playing Wembley (arena, not stadium) these days also had the support of at least one parent.

[ARGH]

[quote name='captain black' post='449161' date='Mar 30 2009, 01:41 AM']I've noticed a proliferation in the numbers of 'Dads Bands' around at the minute.
You can see them all over. They're young.
Their dads ferry them to 'gigs' and set the gear up for them while they stand around looking vaguely interested.
They spend the whole night playing power chords learnt from Tab off the internet while adoring jailbait looks on.
The dads stand at the back nodding all the way through and then pack up the gear at the end.
The upshot?
It's all done for them!
They haven't had to do it for themselves.
As a kid I had to bus 6 miles to practices then carry my amp and bass about a mile (stopping for many rests) so that by the time I got there I could hardly play.
When you learnt your favourite songs you had to LISTEN to the Record ...NO REALLY LISTEN and work out what was going on.
You learnt the subtleties. You learnt your trade. You couldn't just google it.
So I think your answer lies in the fact that the future generation of bands are missing out on the 'serving your time' part.
Also the standard of affordable guitars and basses you learnt on back then, or should I say Planks (hondo etc.), was pretty poor in comparison to what young 'uns have today (not that Dad hasn't bought them a Les Paul anyway).
Anyway....Rant over.

Ps. Apologies to anyone who helps out with their son's band but you get my point.

Some still earn their stripes though fella,you just have to go to poorer areas,watching 5 total ragtags with sh*tty gear get up and do it,is often a marvel to behold...

=--------------

Ouch,you brought back a painful memory of an audition..I had to lug my bass and head from south Beeston to Holbeck....that hurt.

That was the day Keegan walked after losing to Germany at old Wembley[/quote]

[Rich]

Know what you mean. The late-teens son of a mate of mine is in a fairly successful band -- they're getting a hell of a lot of interest, plays on national radio, festival invites, etc -- but without the substantial support and taxi/roadie duties of the band members' parents they would be nowhere. Almost every time I ask him what he's got on at the weekend, it's "oh, Ky's got a gig down in Plymouth/up in Birmingham/in the back of beyond, so there goes my Saturday...".
Thing is, neither he nor the other parents seem to get noticed until there's a problem, when suddenly it's "oh great, now what am I going to do?".

[lonestar]

[quote name='captain black' post='449161' date='Mar 30 2009, 01:41 AM']I've noticed a proliferation in the numbers of 'Dads Bands' around at the minute.
You can see them all over. They're young.
Their dads ferry them to 'gigs' and set the gear up for them while they stand around looking vaguely interested.
They spend the whole night playing power chords learnt from Tab off the internet while adoring jailbait looks on.
The dads stand at the back nodding all the way through and then pack up the gear at the end.
The upshot?
It's all done for them!
They haven't had to do it for themselves.
As a kid I had to bus 6 miles to practices then carry my amp and bass about a mile (stopping for many rests) so that by the time I got there I could hardly play.
When you learnt your favourite songs you had to LISTEN to the Record ...NO REALLY LISTEN and work out what was going on.
You learnt the subtleties. You learnt your trade. You couldn't just google it.
So I think your answer lies in the fact that the future generation of bands are missing out on the 'serving your time' part.
Also the standard of affordable guitars and basses you learnt on back then, or should I say Planks (hondo etc.), was pretty poor in comparison to what young 'uns have today (not that Dad hasn't bought them a Les Paul anyway).
Anyway....Rant over.

Ps. Apologies to anyone who helps out with their son's band but you get my point.[/quote]

Oh dear. I wish that I could disagree with this but you are so right.
It probably removes the those that can't really be bothered to make some effort filter so that anyone can do it in a half as*ed manner and pretend to be a musician.

[cytania]

Bands today may be 'genre-bound'. If you want to play metal you'll find alot of stuff online showing you just how to do it, no need to work a heavy sound up from any roots like blues. Also with fewer venues I think today's bands have to make a real obvious pitch, no room for oddities.

Gear is cheaper but rewards are a shifting sand. Simple goals of previous generations (get a single out, make it a hit) are gone. Who dreams of getting good ticket sales at medium-sized venues or promising downloads? Until sophisticated/hybrid sounds become really popular again don't expect groups to make them.

[slaphappygarry]

I was recording a school battle of the bands gig last week (dont ask... needs must and times are tough...) for a whole bunch of schools in Edinburgh and, whist I agree with some of the points, those kids played and performed to a level that would put most of the old farts playing in the local pubs to shame.

I had no affiliation with any the kids but it dawned at me that little things, like parts learned exactly as they are on the record (complete with all the funny intricate rhythmic variations), were nailed whilst, back to the pub bands, you will be lucky if you even recognize what they are doing....

Just throwing it out there...

G

Edited March 30, 2009 by slaphappygarry

[escholl]

hmm, i wish i had parents (or anyone) to help us move our kit around. the only one with a car even is the drummer, and it's a tiny one at that. gutted.

[Telebass]

[quote name='Oscar South' post='448025' date='Mar 28 2009, 01:42 PM']Its all to do with the abundance of learning matierial and 'easy options' you can take these days.

There are a LOT more bad musicians, but on the other hand the people who are serious about what they do and know how to utilise the expanded pool of talent and resources properly are at a higher level than musicians have ever been. The other thing is in a large pool of players with an ever expanding legion of 'virtuoso' players individuals stand out a lot less than they once did.

There may be a lower 'average' talent across the generation, but don't be fooled by the lazy majority bringing us down, there are players these days who are (or will be) literally the best there ever was.[/quote]


[quote name='john_the_bass' post='448032' date='Mar 28 2009, 01:51 PM']If we're talking about youth attitudes, there are some elderly folk out there that would want to rethink their attitudes and behaviour too.[/quote]


[quote name='mrdirtyrob' post='448092' date='Mar 28 2009, 03:18 PM']Yeah, well we certainly aren't as good at complaining, making sweeping generalisations or ridiculously rose-tinted nostalgia as you guys are....... like.[/quote]


All good points. As a de facto Old Fart ™, I'll agree with them all, too, evven the one about 'elderly folk'...

[captain black]

[quote name='slaphappygarry' post='449285' date='Mar 30 2009, 10:53 AM']I was recording a school battle of the bands gig last week (dont ask... needs must and times are tough...) for a whole bunch of schools in Edinburgh and, whist I agree with some of the points, those kids played and performed to a level that would put most of the old farts playing in the local pubs to shame.

I had no affiliation with any the kids but it dawned at me that little things, like parts learned exactly as they are on the record (complete with all the funny intricate rhythmic variations), were nailed whilst, back to the pub bands, you will be lucky if you even recognize what they are doing....

Just throwing it out there...

G[/quote]

G
Have to acknowledge at the same time that there are some great young bands out there also. Makes you sick!
I'm just remarking that I seem to come accross the other type more and more frequently at the moment.
The facilities for learning that people have right now are better than ever thanks to the internet, DVDs etc,.
Some take advantage and use it as a springboard to better things.
Some just stay at that level.
As ever, i guess it all comes down to personal standards and how hard you're prepared to work and how good you want to be.
You can't half tell the difference between the kids that are [b]driven[/b] and the kids who are driven around tho.

[Russ]

It's very much an "old fart" thing to say that young bands out there don't get to pay their dues these days. But, looking back, were things really that much different when we were younger?

I only started playing in the late 80s, so not all that long ago by some peoples' standards, but we all got lifts to gigs and rehearsals from our parents, learned stuff from tab in the back of Guitar World, had peoples' parents or older brothers on hand to help sort out technical difficulties, etc. OK, we all played crappy instruments (my first bass was a plywood POS called an "Axe", and the guitarist in my first band played a god-awful Marlin - I'd have killed for something as good as a Shine, SX or modern Squier back then) and didn't have access to Youtube, GuitarPro, etc, or to the likes of MySpazz and iTunes to promote yourselves, and it has to be said these things give kids today a bit of a head-start, but, overall, it wasn't all that different.

[Protium]

[quote name='ARGH' post='449134' date='Mar 30 2009, 12:33 AM']Its not often I hear a REALLY strong lp these days.....All killer ,no filler...[/quote]

Not since Sum-41 then?

[Jarhead]

[quote name='captain black' post='449161' date='Mar 30 2009, 01:41 AM']I've noticed a proliferation in the numbers of 'Dads Bands' around at the minute.
You can see them all over. They're young.
Their dads ferry them to 'gigs' and set the gear up for them while they stand around looking vaguely interested.
They spend the whole night playing power chords learnt from Tab off the internet while adoring jailbait looks on.
The dads stand at the back nodding all the way through and then pack up the gear at the end.
The upshot?
It's all done for them!
They haven't had to do it for themselves.
As a kid I had to bus 6 miles to practices then carry my amp and bass about a mile (stopping for many rests) so that by the time I got there I could hardly play.
When you learnt your favourite songs you had to LISTEN to the Record ...NO REALLY LISTEN and work out what was going on.
You learnt the subtleties. You learnt your trade. You couldn't just google it.
So I think your answer lies in the fact that the future generation of bands are missing out on the 'serving your time' part.
Also the standard of affordable guitars and basses you learnt on back then, or should I say Planks (hondo etc.), was pretty poor in comparison to what young 'uns have today (not that Dad hasn't bought them a Les Paul anyway).
Anyway....Rant over.

Ps. Apologies to anyone who helps out with their son's band but you get my point.[/quote]
Yeah, I know what you mean, but my band only ever gets a lift to the gig, because we have so much gear to shift. As soon as we get there, we get everything out, and the parents disappear off somewhere, we set up everything, etc. then we give them a call when we need to get everything home.

Zach

[budget bassist]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='448782' date='Mar 29 2009, 04:13 PM']A lot of metal genres need new names. It's funny that being "Progressive" now means recreating music from the '70s.[/quote]
You think so? i think progressive means playing something that hasn't been played before. There's plenty of progresive bands these days that don't sound 70's at all.

[budget bassist]

[quote name='captain black' post='449161' date='Mar 30 2009, 12:41 AM']I've noticed a proliferation in the numbers of 'Dads Bands' around at the minute.
You can see them all over. They're young.
Their dads ferry them to 'gigs' and set the gear up for them while they stand around looking vaguely interested.
They spend the whole night playing power chords learnt from Tab off the internet while adoring jailbait looks on.
The dads stand at the back nodding all the way through and then pack up the gear at the end.
The upshot?
It's all done for them!
They haven't had to do it for themselves.
As a kid I had to bus 6 miles to practices then carry my amp and bass about a mile (stopping for many rests) so that by the time I got there I could hardly play.
When you learnt your favourite songs you had to LISTEN to the Record ...NO REALLY LISTEN and work out what was going on.
You learnt the subtleties. You learnt your trade. You couldn't just google it.
So I think your answer lies in the fact that the future generation of bands are missing out on the 'serving your time' part.
Also the standard of affordable guitars and basses you learnt on back then, or should I say Planks (hondo etc.), was pretty poor in comparison to what young 'uns have today (not that Dad hasn't bought them a Les Paul anyway).
Anyway....Rant over.

Ps. Apologies to anyone who helps out with their son's band but you get my point.[/quote]
My dad has no interest in the music i play and really wouldn't waste his time setting up for me. I don't know where you go to see bands, but i haven't noticed this anywhere. If you want to waste time setting up your son's band or whatever it is you have against us kids, you do it, but don't drag the rest of us down with them. my dad has driven me to 2/3 band practices/gigs before. I make an effort to get to band pracices/gigs MYSELF. Go watch some better bands mate.

Edited April 1, 2009 by budget bassist

[funkypenguin]

[quote name='peteb' post='448243' date='Mar 28 2009, 06:58 PM']That’s pretty much what I was wondering. It’s easier now to learn to play for the reasons you mention, but do kids now have the dedication to take it a stage further!

I genuinely don’t know, but according to my mate the general standard is a lot lower. Not that he is particularly bothered, he just mentioned it as an observation – he just cares whether they have commercial songs and the right haircut![/quote]


There, in my opinion, lies part of the problem. many people who play a 'popular instrument', guitar, bass etc. dont play the instrument to practice and progress to be as good as they can be, they practice till they are good enough to play and sound how they know producers are going to want them to sound (with the aim of getting a deal). i know there are exceptions, and i am generalising to a degree, but by and large IMHO this is what happens. Popular musicians coming through nowdays have very little (if any) grounding in music theory. they get set patterns, tabs and basic progressions and utilise those as the staple ingredients in their music, rather than trying out new ideas and moving outside the 'box'.

On a 'Playing' note, I think that young players like Hadrien Feraud and Janek Gwizdala are proof that the level of technial facility on the bass is there, but i think that precious few young/up and coming players will be exposed to/interested in/want to practice hard enough to reach that level (or anywhere near it!), especially when they try to incorporate more inventive (outlandish/outrageous etc. ) bass parts and get shot down immediately, either by their teacher/bandmates/producer, with the usual comments 'thats not bass', 'cant you just play the root', 'why didnt you take up guitar' etc.

There are alot of very good young bass players out there, who practice day-in day-out. The talent is there alright, but no one seems to be particularly interested in listening to them.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L3mzyo9U1Q&feature=channel_page"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L3mzyo9U1Q...re=channel_page[/url]

Just my 2 penneth!

Edited April 17, 2009 by funkypenguin

[mike257]

[quote name='funkypenguin' post='464630' date='Apr 17 2009, 02:16 AM']There, in my opinion, lies part of the problem. many people who play a 'popular instrument', guitar, bass etc. dont play the instrument to practice and progress to be as good as they can be, they practice till they are good enough to play and sound how they know producers are going to want them to sound (with the aim of getting a deal). i know there are exceptions, and i am generalising to a degree, but by and large IMHO this is what happens. Popular musicians coming through nowdays have very little (if any) grounding in music theory. they get set patterns, tabs and basic progressions and utilise those as the staple ingredients in their music, rather than trying out new ideas and moving outside the 'box'.[/quote]

I've been playing for ten years, and play to a pretty decent standard, but my goal has [i]never[/i] been to play to a 'virtuoso' standard, or to work every scale, chord and mode into my bass playing. I love music, and I love it because of the emotional impact a great song can have on a person (or a room full of people). In my head, it's always been about songs first and foremost.

The comparison between Oasis and Extreme is a perfect case in point. I'm not a massive fan of either band, but I can respect both of them. Certainly nobody in Oasis is half as capable on their instrument as Nuno and co, but you won't see 60,000 people in a field singing their hearts out because they feel so uplifted by 'Get The Funk Out'.

There will always be bands that are full of super-gifted players, but the music industry wants bands that people - ordinary non musician people off the street - can connect with.