General decline of standards

[markdavid]

[quote name='captain black' post='449161' date='Mar 30 2009, 01:41 AM']Their dads ferry them to 'gigs' and set the gear up for them while they stand around looking vaguely interested.
They spend the whole night playing power chords learnt from Tab off the internet while adoring jailbait looks on.
The dads stand at the back nodding all the way through and then pack up the gear at the end.
The upshot?
It's all done for them!
They haven't had to do it for themselves.
As a kid I had to bus 6 miles to practices then carry my amp and bass about a mile (stopping for many rests) so that by the time I got there I could hardly play.[/quote]

Bitterness is a foul smelling cologne

[TimR]

In a word - Dynamics.

I think that there is generally the music has moved to a place where everything has to be louder then everything else.
I saw 3 bands on a bill last month all doing originals. The first band on, the drummer was out of time, the singer was out of tune, but the songs had dynamics and worked well. Each player gave the other space.

The second 2 were dire. Each one was 5 players playing as much as they could as loudly as they could. Each individully a 'good' player but the whole wasn't as good as each part.

This has probably been going on for time immoral and certainly was going on when I was in my teens. Older and younger bands both suffer from this.

However amplification has moved on, it's cheap and very loud and bands can't get away with playing everything loud all the time.

Loud is relative, but without quiet and slow - what is loud and fast?

[WILD FROG SHOT]

Doubt this will be the last time but, once again, music is not a competition. There are technically bad players in all generations; is it really a crime for younger people writing their own music to be below par? At least they have time to develop and improve. Surely it is more of a "lazy" crime to play solely in a covers band.

+1 on the comments that bands should act as a unit rather than a group of individual fret-w***ers.

I cannot really comment on nu-metal; wasn't the point to remove the face-melting solos and add some hippity-hop to get some groove back into heavier music? Also didn't it open up Metal to a new audience of kids who weren't the sad greasy-haired B.O. fuelled loners at school /adults (that never grew out of it)?

Arguably, isn't being technically good (as in near-perfect theoretical knowledge and knowing what one "should" play here and there) and having "standards" the complete polar opposite to what music is supposed to be about?

[peteb]

[quote name='WILD FROG SHOT' post='468509' date='Apr 21 2009, 02:06 PM']Doubt this will be the last time but, once again, music is not a competition. There are technically bad players in all generations; is it really a crime for younger people writing their own music to be below par? At least they have time to develop and improve. Surely it is more of a "lazy" crime to play solely in a covers band.

+1 on the comments that bands should act as a unit rather than a group of individual fret-w***ers.

I cannot really comment on nu-metal; wasn't the point to remove the face-melting solos and add some hippity-hop to get some groove back into heavier music? Also didn't it open up Metal to a new audience of kids who weren't the sad greasy-haired B.O. fuelled loners at school /adults (that never grew out of it)?

Arguably, isn't being technically good (as in near-perfect theoretical knowledge and knowing what one "should" play here and there) and having "standards" the complete polar opposite to what music is supposed to be about?[/quote]
NO, being technically good and having "standards" is NOT the complete polar opposite to what music is supposed to be about – if you truly believe that then I really hope that I never accidentally have to see your band play!

Music is absolutely NOT a competition to see who can play the fastest or most technically, etc but the OP was suggesting that young original bands these days do not play as a unit as well as their counterparts from 10 or 20 years ago, regardless of the quality of the performance of any solos (or fret w**king as you prefer to call it) - and if a band can't perform their own music to a reasonable standard then who will be able to appreciate the quality of their material?

And as for “the sad greasy-haired B.O. fuelled loners” – you obviously were not around in the 80s when there were always plenty of women around rock clubs and their main complaint was always that they could never get near the mirror the following morning!!

[ARGH]

ahhh..the birds in lycra years...its making a comeback fella!!

AND BIG HAIR!!!

[Tait]

[quote name='peteb' post='468865' date='Apr 21 2009, 05:56 PM']NO, being technically good and having "standards" is NOT the complete polar opposite to what music is supposed to be about – if you truly believe that then I really hope that I never accidentally have to see your band play![/quote]

i think they both are and aren't. somtimes i think some people care so much about being technically good that they forget what music is about - being fun to make and listen to. so in that way, they are opposites. but also theyre not opposites because you have to be technically good to play good music (not necessarily good at deep theorey, but you have to be able to identify when a certain note doesn't sound right, and also need good technique, be able to get a good sound etc. which i'd all class as part of being good). it's a balance, really.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='WILD FROG SHOT' post='468509' date='Apr 21 2009, 02:06 PM']Doubt this will be the last time but, once again, music is not a competition. There are technically bad players in all generations; is it really a crime for younger people writing their own music to be below par? At least they have time to develop and improve. [b]Surely it is more of a "lazy" crime to play solely in a covers band.[/b][/quote]

I really can't see why playing in a so-called covers band would be thought of as 'lazy' or, even more so, as a crime. Sounds to me like you're treating music as a competition.

Speaking for myself I'd rather play quality songs written by somebody else than poor originals written by me. Actually, don't most musicians play songs written by someone else. I play in a covers band (not my only band) and what we do is neither criminal nor lazy. We're very hard working and put on a great show.

[quote name='WILD FROG SHOT' post='468509' date='Apr 21 2009, 02:06 PM']+1 on the comments that bands should act as a unit rather than a group of individual fret-w***ers.[/quote]

Agreed.

[quote name='WILD FROG SHOT' post='468509' date='Apr 21 2009, 02:06 PM']I cannot really comment on nu-metal; wasn't the point to remove the face-melting solos and add some hippity-hop to get some groove back into heavier music? Also didn't it open up Metal to a new audience of kids who weren't the sad greasy-haired B.O. fuelled loners at school /adults (that never grew out of it)?[/quote]

I know nothing about Metal, it's never interested me, so no comment.

[quote name='WILD FROG SHOT' post='468509' date='Apr 21 2009, 02:06 PM']Arguably, isn't being technically good (as in near-perfect theoretical knowledge and knowing what one "should" play here and there) and having "standards" the complete polar opposite to what music is supposed to be about?[/quote]

So, according to you music is about being technically bad (as in near non-existent theoretical knowledge and not knowing what one 'should' play here and there) and having no 'standards. Don't invite me to your gig.

[peteb]

[quote name='LWTAIT' post='468873' date='Apr 21 2009, 06:06 PM']i think they both are and aren't. somtimes i think some people care so much about being technically good that they forget what music is about - being fun to make and listen to. so in that way, they are opposites. but also theyre not opposites because you have to be technically good to play good music (not necessarily good at deep theorey, but you have to be able to identify when a certain note doesn't sound right, and also need good technique, be able to get a good sound etc. which i'd all class as part of being good). it's a balance, really.[/quote]
Yep, I pretty much agree with you there – you do not need to be a virtuoso to play a great music and some great players are tedious beyond words to actually listen to!

However, a band does need to be able to play together to some degree….

[peteb]

[quote name='ARGH' post='468868' date='Apr 21 2009, 06:02 PM']ahhh..the birds in lycra years...its making a comeback fella!!

AND BIG HAIR!!![/quote]
There's probably some towns up in the North West where they are still waiting for it to happen first time round!

[WILD FROG SHOT]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='468876' date='Apr 21 2009, 06:12 PM']I really can't see why playing in a so-called covers band would be thought of as 'lazy' or, even more so, as a crime. Sounds to me like you're treating music as a competition.

Speaking for myself I'd rather play quality songs written by somebody else than poor originals written by me. Actually, don't most musicians play songs written by someone else. I play in a covers band (not my only band) and what we do is neither criminal nor lazy. We're very hard working and put on a great show.[/quote]

The words "lazy crime" were used as previous posters have alluded to younger players being sloppy and sometimes lazy in their study of general theory/technique. I was merely stating that imo it's surely better for the music industry in general if young players are exploring their own sounds/songs (even if they are a bit sloppy and aren't arguably new sounds anyway) rather than regurgitating the well defined successes of others.

I didn't literally mean that playing in a covers band is lazy; more so from a creative point of view in terms that very little is new. If I had to commit myself to playing solely covers, I would imagine I'd give up bass very quickly. I fully recognise that covers bands have to work hard (an ivory-tinkling friend of mine has to know a repertoire of about 40 tracks, which takes a lot of hard work and dedication).

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='468876' date='Apr 21 2009, 06:12 PM']So, according to you music is about being technically bad (as in near non-existent theoretical knowledge and not knowing what one 'should' play here and there) and having no 'standards. Don't invite me to your gig.[/quote]

Hmm, maybe "good" wasn't the word I was looking for. Obviously it is essential to have a reasonable grounding in theory. My point was that on many occasions when working with someone that has been taught what one "should" play (that person being very proficient in their knowledge of theory), the end result is often disappointing, unoriginal and a little predictable.

One of our guitarists literally plays by ear, he wouldn't know a major scale if it slapped him in the face. He is probably the most creative member of our band and frequently comes up with fresh new ideas (granted sometimes he needs a little structure and guidance). I fear that his playing would lose a lot of originality if he was theory perfect. I wouldn't have it any other way.

[XB26354]

[quote name='LWTAIT' post='468873' date='Apr 21 2009, 06:06 PM']i think they both are and aren't. somtimes i think some people care so much about being technically good that they forget what music is about - being fun to make and listen to. so in that way, they are opposites. but also theyre not opposites because you have to be technically good to play good music (not necessarily good at deep theorey, but you have to be able to identify when a certain note doesn't sound right, and also need good technique, be able to get a good sound etc. which i'd all class as part of being good). it's a balance, really.[/quote]

I don't think you can have two paradoxes in the same paragraph
Oddly enough Dave Ellefson of ex-Megadeth fame put it quite succinctly in his BGM interview, basically that learn all the theory/jazz etc but also play in some basic rock/punk bands to get raw emotion. The whole point about theory is to get to the point where you no longer think about it at all - you just make music. These people that only care about being technically good don't really - they haven't learnt enough. Anyone that takes it far enough should have enough tools just to make the music that is in their head. What comes out is down to taste. Oh and ignorance is sometimes creative naivety, and sometimes just plain ignorance

Edited April 22, 2009 by XB26354

[Tait]

[quote name='XB26354' post='470241' date='Apr 23 2009, 12:05 AM']I don't think you can have two paradoxes in the same paragraph [/quote]

i don't know what paradox means but you probably mean when i said they both are and aren't? i wasn't sure if that worked or not, it sounded odd to me, but i went with it 'cos you all know what i'm on about.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='LWTAIT' post='470939' date='Apr 23 2009, 05:09 PM']i don't know what paradox means[/quote]

If you have google installed on your computer you can find out: [url="http://www.answers.com/paradox"]http://www.answers.com/paradox[/url]

Honestly, kids today...

I remember when I were a lad and we had to use yahoo to find things on the internet, and it were powered by steam.

Alex

[BigBeefChief]

In my day, Paradox was a Brighton nightclub.

[51m0n]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='470955' date='Apr 23 2009, 05:32 PM']In my day, Paradox was a Brighton nightclub.[/quote]

B100dy hell BBC, that is going back a while, mind you before that it was called The Pink Coconut - 'nuff said!