Future Impact v3 and now V4

[Quatschmacher]

On another note, given the founder of MIDI is alive and well, we could ask him which “standard” is correct. Dave Smith of Sequential is pretty engaged with the community and even has a weekly “ask sequential” slot which the company puts out on YouTube and other social media on Fridays. 

Or check the official standard here:

https://www.midi.org

Again, no sarcasm intended. I’m curious myself. 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Quatschmacher

[stewblack]

I too had no idea you didn't work for them. I always thought you'd written the manual, and therefore were definitely a part of the organisation. 

I don't think @prowla can be blamed for coming to a similar conclusion. 

[Quatschmacher]

39 minutes ago, stewblack said:

I too had no idea you didn't work for them. I always thought you'd written the manual, and therefore were definitely a part of the organisation. 

I don't think @prowla can be blamed for coming to a similar conclusion. 

I did write the manual as I volunteered to do it after getting involved in voluntary patch writing and bug testing as I thought it would benefit users. You probably missed that info as it was in the old FI thread which I started as a means to helping users get their head around it. I locked thy thread and started this one when v3 was launched as much of the information was superseded.

I wasn’t apportioning blame and I can understand that thinking I were one of their employees would be a reasonable conclusion to draw. Hopefully all is clarified now. 

[prowla]

@Quatschmacher Yes, I hadn't realised that you were working on a volunteer basis and I do appreciate the effort you put in.

However, you did say:

Quote

The FI isn't the issue rather the controller you used.

And on the manufacturers support page I got the response:

Quote

All I can say is that on the FI what you see is what you get. When you send a Program Change with a parameter 1, then it will select Program 1 on the FI and 1 will appear on the screen. I cannot do anything if a controller sends 1 and displays 2, as it is the case here.

Which are what prompted me to say:

Quote

It is unproductive when representatives of a company say they are right and therefore it's the other company's fault or the customer's problem to sort it.

and:

Quote

Saying "it's not my problem" and recommending the purchase of another unit costing almost as much again as the FI to resolve it is not really what I would've hoped for.

Of course, none of those comments are directed at anybody personally, but at the words posted.

[Quatschmacher]

Just now, prowla said:

And on the manufacturers support page I got the response:

Just to be clear, that group is NOT the manufacturer’s support group. It’s a group I set up as a discussion forum for users who might not be on here or Talkbass. 

[Quatschmacher]

And I fully agree with Andras; the FI behaves as it should and shows program 1 when sent PC 1. So I stand by my statement that the “problem” is with the controller. Your controller is likely displaying 1 but sending PC 0, which you could verify by plugging it into any MIDI monitoring software such as MIDIOX or C6.

[prowla]

Assuming that "deal with it" doesn't just mean go away and shut up, I have:

1. Made (constructive) recommendations that the manual be updated to highlight the issue.
2. Requested that the product might be enhanced to add support for both forms of PC number formats: 0-127/1-128.

I do understand the underlying numbers and, for what it's worth, appreciate that 0-127 is "correct" from a programming point of view, as it is 7 bits of data.

However, we are in a world where some companies have taken it upon themselves to say that people can't handle having the 1st item be number zero, and so-on, so they've chosen to present them as 1, etc.

As a mitigation against that, some companies allow a 0-127/1-128 option, for instance another MIDI switch I have, the MIDIBUDDY MP128 has a DIP switch on the back panel. (But unfortunately, I wanted something more compact.)

I think that requesting a feature enhancement that the FI firmware has a similar capability is perfectly reasonable.

If every piece of kit, including controllers, modules, software had such a switch, then it would become a non-issue.

Of course, in DAWs and suchlike, it may not be important, as you'll probably label them anyway by the song or some description of the sound. And that also applies to a programmable hardware switch unit, where you have a text display.

Unfortunately, the hardware switcher is a non-programmable sealed unit, so it can't be changed.

However, the FI firmware presumably could.

[prowla]

17 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

Just to be clear, that group is NOT the manufacturer’s support group. It’s a group I set up as a discussion forum for users who might not be on here or Talkbass. 

Excuse me - from the manufacturer's representative, then.

14 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

And I fully agree with Andras; the FI behaves as it should and shows program 1 when sent PC 1. So I stand by my statement that the “problem” is with the controller. Your controller is likely displaying 1 but sending PC 0, which you could verify by plugging it into any MIDI monitoring software such as MIDIOX or C6.

And there you have it - the "not my problem" position.

The arguments as to whether it is "right" or "wrong" are not the point; the real-world fact is that companies produce kit with different interpretation.

And some companies have a setting so they will support either.

The question is whether the respective companies consider it important enough to address.

A product which can handle both conventions is plainly more flexible and compatible with other units.

 

[Quatschmacher]

1 minute ago, prowla said:

Unfortunately, the hardware switcher is a non-programmable sealed unit, so it can't be changed.

The hardware switcher still has its own firmware and could probably be updated if Tech 21 were of a mind to offer the feature. Have you asked them?

I don’t have a problem in adding a line to the manual stating that the FI responds as it should 1:1 to the PC messages it is sent. 

Code space in the FI is preciously low and there are some yet-to-be implemented features which require it more pressingly. It’s always a trade-off as to what features most users are going to find important, and I say this with no exaggeration or malice but you are literally the only person who has raised this particular point with regard to the FI (that I’m aware of) in all the discussion I’ve had and read about the product over the past few years. 

[Quatschmacher]

2 minutes ago, prowla said:

Excuse me - from the manufacturer's representative, then.

Am I misunderstanding here? I thought we’d cleared up that I’m not the company representative. Or are you referring to Andras who is Panda Audio’s CEO?

[prowla]

16 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

The hardware switcher still has its own firmware and could probably be updated if Tech 21 were of a mind to offer the feature. Have you asked them?

I don’t have a problem in adding a line to the manual stating that the FI responds as it should 1:1 to the PC messages it is sent. 

Code space in the FI is preciously low and there are some yet-to-be implemented features which require it more pressingly. It’s always a trade-off as to what features most users are going to find important, and I say this with no exaggeration or malice but you are literally the only person who has raised this particular point with regard to the FI (that I’m aware of) in all the discussion I’ve had and read about the product over the past few years. 

I have raised the issue with Tech21 also; they may not be going to respond out of business hours.

The unit itself is a sealed unit and I don't know if it is programmable; it's presented as a black box.

I suspect any fix they come up with would be in the release of a new product, rather than an update to the existing one.

Maybe I'm just unlucky in having chosen a product which introduces this interoperability issue; hence my suggestion of mentioning in the manual.

Whether you should phrase it as "as it should", or in more neutral terms is something to consider; the MIDIBUDDY MP128 unit I have states this in its manual:

Quote

The LED display on the MIDIBUDDY shows the MIDI program number (0 - 127, or
1 - 128 depending on the setting of DIP switch # 6). As the 10s Up or Down are
scrolled through, the unit increments or decrements through banks 10 through
120. The ones digit is selected by switches 0 - 9. MIDI data is sent only when a 1 -
9 button is selected except as described below. The display will show a "-" in the
right hand digit when no MIDI information is sent.
Buttons on the pedal are labeled 10's UP, 10's DOWN and 0 - 9. Pressing a
numbered button causes a MIDI program change message to be sent. The
selected program number is displayed in the window's right hand digit. Pressing
the UP or DOWN buttons moves you into the next higher or lower group of 10
presets. The display will show a "-" in the right hand digit if the program change
number isn't between 1 and 128 (there is no 00 or 129) or when a 10's UP or
DOWN button is pressed.

That seems fairly neutral.

As to the code space; yes, I appreciate that; hence I have made an enhancement request (not a demand!). 🙂

Of course, companies will choose and prioritise what should be included in development(s).

Edited June 28, 2020 by prowla

[prowla]

13 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

Am I misunderstanding here? I thought we’d cleared up that I’m not the company representative. Or are you referring to Andras who is Panda Audio’s CEO?

Yes - Andras; that was specifically relating to your correction (noted) that the FB site is not the manufacturer's support site, but rather an enthusiast's site, and he posted there as a company representative.

Edited June 28, 2020 by prowla

[Al Krow]

@Quatschmacher as a former FI user, I think I would be right in saying that a lot of us are massively grateful for the time and skill you've put into this pedal and in devising and sharing so many excellent patches for free. But also taking the time to be a goto resource for anyone who has sought your help. Bravo mate, you're a hero. 

[prowla]

2 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

@Quatschmacher as a former FI user, I think I would be right in saying that a lot of us are massively grateful for the time and skill you've put into this pedal and in devising and sharing so many excellent patches for free. But also taking the time to be a goto resource for anyone who has sought your help. Bravo mate, you're a hero. 

Echo that, and I hope that nothing I have said here (other than in expressing thanks) could be construed as directed against you personally!

🙂

[prowla]

3 hours ago, Quatschmacher said:

(Out of interest, have you used the controller to control your Minitaur? That’s another device which runs 0-127 I believe as PC engages panel mode.)

I haven't tried it with my Minitaur, because it would have no function there; I have a PK-5A bass pedal unit for that and the Minitaur lives in a rack unit which is all set in place.

[Quatschmacher]

3 minutes ago, prowla said:

I haven't tried it with my Minitaur, because it would have no function there; I have a PK-5A bass pedal unit for that and the Minitaur lives in a rack unit which is all set in place.

Do the bass pedals allow preset switching too? I meant that you could use the moose to switch Minitaur presets too. Or does the moose only ever output on one channel? 

[Quatschmacher]

35 minutes ago, prowla said:

I have raised the issue with Tech21 also; they may not be going to respond out of business hours.

The unit itself is a sealed unit and I don't know if it is programmable; it's presented as a black box.

I suspect any fix they come up with would be in the release of a new product, rather than an update to the existing one.

Maybe I'm just unlucky in having chosen a product which introduces this interoperability issue; hence my suggestion of mentioning in the manual.

Whether you should phrase it as "as it should", or in more neutral terms is something to consider; the MIDIBUDDY MP128 unit I have states this in its manual:

That seems fairly neutral.

As to the code space; yes, I appreciate that; hence I have made an enhancement request (not a demand!). 🙂

Of course, companies will choose and prioritise what should be included in development(s).

Even sealed units can have firmware updates via midi ports or USB ports as the FI, Morningstar gear, etc do if set up to do so. I have no idea about Tech 21 stuff.

One thing to bear in mind is that the majority of FI users probably don’t use MIDI as they use the pedal on its own. This seems to be borne out by online discussion. We MIDI users are in the minority.

I didn’t read your request as a demand. I was just trying to give a fuller picture of the considerations that go into the update process. I say this as someone who has had some of my ideas incorporated and had others rejected.

Of course I’d adopt a less self-righteous tone in the manual. 😆

Edited June 28, 2020 by Quatschmacher

[GisserD]

i have a little sticker on some of my pedals saying "midi +1". this reminds me that if i want to recall patch X, i have to send it the PC(x)+1

problem solved.

[prowla]

19 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

Do the bass pedals allow preset switching too? I meant that you could use the moose to switch Minitaur presets too. Or does the moose only ever output on one channel? 

Yes, the PK-5A has a Prog button and the pedals C-whatever are 09, with A being Enter.

Neither the pedals nor the Minitaur display the channel, so there's no visual issue there.

[prowla]

14 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

Even sealed units can have firmware updates via midi ports or USB ports as the FI, Morningstar gear, etc do if set up to do so. I have no idea about Tech 21 stuff.

One thing to bear in mind is that the majority of FI users probably don’t use MIDI as they use the pedal on its own. This seems to be borne out by online discussion. We MIDI users are in the minority.

I didn’t read your request as a demand. I was just trying to give a fuller picture of the considerations that go into the update process. I say this as someone who has had some of my ideas incorporated and had others rejected.

Of course I’d adopt a less self-righteous tone in the manual. 😆

Yes - I would agree that most folks wouldn't connect a MIDI controller to the FI, and so would never encounter any issue.

In my case, I just wanted something to allow me to enter the channel number without embellishment - what a foolish notion!

I really didn't want another programmable unit to configure as I've just plain got too many of them in my life - just wanted something simple!

If I were to go for a programmable controller, I might consider a Keith McMillen SoftStep, as I already have a 12-Step and a QNexus; of course, now I have to confirm it does the 0-127/1-128 convention as required...

[Quatschmacher]

Seems appropriate:

There are 2 hard problems in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-1 errors.

[prowla]

2 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

Seems appropriate:

There are 2 hard problems in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-1 errors.

Yes - I work in IT and am always having to think about whether the 1st item in an array or character of a string is at "0" or "1"; from my 80s C programming, it should (of course) be 0, but you can never be sure and there's always someone out to get you!

[stewblack]

I have had a major breakthrough (for me it is anyway), sent a song to learn for saturday's socially distant rehearsal. BL had some kind of weird oscillating digeredoo / broken squueze box being played at the bottom of the sea type sound at the intro to the track. This band is all acoustic instruments bar me and the piano. So I thought, wonder if I can recreate that sound on the FI? And boom, straight there first go. Looking forward to surprising them all.

[Quatschmacher]

35 minutes ago, stewblack said:

I have had a major breakthrough (for me it is anyway), sent a song to learn for saturday's socially distant rehearsal. BL had some kind of weird oscillating digeredoo / broken squueze box being played at the bottom of the sea type sound at the intro to the track. This band is all acoustic instruments bar me and the piano. So I thought, wonder if I can recreate that sound on the FI? And boom, straight there first go. Looking forward to surprising them all.

You could upload and share the patch!

[stewblack]

3 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

You could upload and share the patch!

I could ... but it's prettey spectacularly unmusical. More of a sound effect. The reason it made me happy is because it's the first time I've set out to create something specific and achieved it. Up until now I've more stumbled on things.