Instrument Cable Comparison

[bode]

 

I came across a great video comparing the technical merits of patch leads, but does anyone know of a similar comparison site for instrument and speaker cables?

The Ernie Ball's got a great mention by the way, so they will be on my pedal board.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u548vUk6mmE

 

 

[itu]

A good quality cables do not have to cost much. I do like Neutrik connectors, especially if they are for hard use. Hard use equals the way bassists use them. Likewise I prefer silicone cables. I do build my own and the first has been in use since late 80's or early 90's. For pedal board the angled plugs can be less robust, because they do not move.

Short cables can have pretty high capacitance, but longer lines (+3 m) should be low capacitance if the high end response should be preserved.

By the way, do you already have this: https://www.thecablecooker.com/

[Lozz196]

There’s a topic on the new Mesa amp where one of our members mentions expensive instrument cables and how much of a revelation he found them. 

[bloke_zero]

Worth noting that speaker cable and instument cable is different: https://www.studybass.com/gear/bass-amps/how-to-hook-up-heads-and-cabinets/

I have a mate who has one of these: https://www.undertoneaudio.com/products/vari-cap-instrument-cable

It effectively emulates cheap cables - slightly bonkers!

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

I really like the current version of fender curly cables. I’m not worried about treble loss as I’ve been playing my telecaster through one this afternoon and the tone from the bridge pickup has tons of twang with the eq on the amp set flat.

[Steve Browning]

On 03/07/2021 at 15:55, Lozz196 said:

There’s a topic on the new Mesa amp where one of our members mentions expensive instrument cables and how much of a revelation he found them. 

That was me. Indeed, the other BC'er involved has just taken delivery of his own Evidence Audio Reveal cable. 

[Aalin]

On 7/5/2021 at 10:51 AM, bloke_zero said:

 

I have a mate who has one of these: https://www.undertoneaudio.com/products/vari-cap-instrument-cable

It effectively emulates cheap cables - slightly bonkers!

What is the use to be able to vary the amount of capacitance of a cable when you know the lowest is the best ?

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, Aalin said:

On 05/07/2021 at 09:51, bloke_zero said:

 

I have a mate who has one of these: https://www.undertoneaudio.com/products/vari-cap-instrument-cable

It effectively emulates cheap cables - slightly bonkers!

What is the use to be able to vary the amount of capacitance of a cable when you know the lowest is the best ?

 

May I suggest that the assumption that a cable which has the minimum impact on the signal is best is a fallacy?

Everything in the signal chain from pickup  to loudspeaker has an impact that colours the sound to a greater or lesser extent, although the effect of some may be imperceptible.

Nothing is  best, just different. That doesn't stop anyone having a preference.

 

[itu]

2 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Everything in the signal chain from pickup  to loudspeaker has an impact that colours the sound to a greater or lesser extent, although the effect of some may be imperceptible.

Nothing is  best, just different. That doesn't stop anyone having a preference.

In audio there are lots of tests. Many test settings are after the best. Sure they do measure difference between competitors.

PA systems (covering bass systems, too) are often after something else than superior quality and flat response audio. One of these is loudness. There are still same tests available for the components of PA systems. 

Quality cable does not color sound. But if you want to get a deteriorated sound, no one is on your way. Understanding the facts which affect colouring then help a lot.

[Stub Mandrel]

13 minutes ago, itu said:

In audio there are lots of tests. Many test settings are after the best. Sure they do measure difference between competitors.

PA systems (covering bass systems, too) are often after something else than superior quality and flat response audio. One of these is loudness. There are still same tests available for the components of PA systems. 

Quality cable does not color sound. But if you want to get a deteriorated sound, no one is on your way. Understanding the facts which affect colouring then help a lot.

Yes, but define best when 'best' is a subjective, aesthetic  opinion? If I roll off my tone control, am I getting a 'deteriorated' sound or a different one?

If I like a rounded 70s blues-rock sound, I might find changing to a low capacitance cable suddenly make everything  too brash!

What matters is understanding that cable choice makes a difference.

There's a good example here: http://www.shootoutguitarcables.com/guitar-cables-explained/myths.html

Quote

Example: You are told that a guitar cable product using 100pF capacitance per metre cable is ideal. You believe this and you purchase a 3 metre cable for your home studio and a 12 metre cable for your friend's studio.

However you notice that when playing through your amp at your friends studio your tone is different. This is because your total supposedly ideal cable capacitance in your home studio is the 3 metre version totalling 300pF and at your friends studio is the 12 metre cable totalling 1200pf!

Your friend then says "Hey try my new cable dude!" and you do. It is 6 metres long and the cable capacitance is 50pF per metre... and it sounds just like the mythical ideal cable in your home studio as its total capacitance is also 300pF!

So both 100pf and 50pF per metre cables are ideal capacitances? No there is no ideal capacitance cable, only an ideal total capacitance for you and your different setups.

 

[Jack]

On 03/07/2021 at 15:55, Lozz196 said:

There’s a topic on the new Mesa amp where one of our members mentions expensive instrument cables and how much of a revelation he found them. 

 

21 hours ago, Steve Browning said:

That was me. Indeed, the other BC'er involved has just taken delivery of his own Evidence Audio Reveal cable. 

Ooooh does anyone have a link please? I can't wait to see the measurement data and listen to the sound clips.

[itu]

3 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

What matters is understanding that cable choice makes a difference.

Didn't I say: "Understanding the facts..."? 

Personal preferences sure play a big part of our sounds. Tweaking is for us players: I love effects, I need my lo-fi speaker, and how about my playing style?

(I HATE most of the verbal comments on sound like "vintage" which does not mean anything. Is there a single vintage sound from the bass, the cable, the amp, or some system? We lack many tests and qualifications that could help us in comparing sounds and detailing finesses.)

We still do have different stuff available that can be measured at least to some extent. Like cables. And we should understand the results. "The best" here is probably somewhat bad qualification just like the previous "vintage", so I will suggest to use the word "suitable".

[Steve Browning]

1 hour ago, Jack said:

 

Ooooh does anyone have a link please? I can't wait to see the measurement data and listen to the sound clips.

No such data available. The test equipment was 4 ears. I described the results as we perceived them. The difference was clear to our collective lug'oles.

No science was involved. 

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, itu said:

We lack many tests and qualifications that could help us in comparing sounds and detailing finesses.)

Possibly because these things are subjective.?

I know my eyes see things at different colour temperatures due to some obscure difference. I am also sure my ears differ in their responses from each other. If my left and right sides don't agree on colour or sound,  there has to be even more subjectivity between individuals.

 

[itu]

1 hour ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Possibly because these things are subjective?

Most of our senses are measured, and approximated from very big amounts of data through standardized tests. True, we do sense things in slightly different ways depending on an individual. As an example we bassists can hear certain details from the low end that others think is insignificant. 

In general people's senses act in a tested way. On average we should hear from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, although some can hear down to 16 Hz or up to 37 kHz, and others far less. Statistically 20 - 20k is still valid response for a young and healthy ear. This is not only subjective, but a tested fact.

I will not go to learning and other finesses, one part of our hearing is psychoacoustics. It also covers excessive amount of research and background data which is not feasible to represent here. Everything is not simply subjective, although the larger picture sure can contain some subjective parts. This will be the situation as long as we are not able to represent our experiences with agreed and common terms thoroughly. "Suitable" could still be a better term than "the best", even with some very subjective stuff. After all, most of our wants may include lots of foggy compromises:

"What's the best cheap bass?"

What?

Say, how much is your cheap and I may be able to find something for you.

[Jack]

5 hours ago, Steve Browning said:

No such data available. The test equipment was 4 ears. I described the results as we perceived them. The difference was clear to our collective lug'oles.

No science was involved. 

I'd wager that perception bias, confirmation bias, the OE effect, congruence bias, validity illusion, expectation bias, subjective validity and much more science was likely involved. But then I should really read the thread, that's a job for tomorrow. 

 

Obviously anyone is free to enjoy any piece of gear, I'm not the cable police. However, when a claim is made it should be backed up. In fairness to Steve I haven't seen any such claims in here and we can't debunk subjective claims like 'better' or 'more alive' anyway. But we can just stick a cable on a scope and see that it's no different from the next. 

 

[Steve Browning]

11 hours ago, Jack said:

I'd wager that perception bias, confirmation bias, the OE effect, congruence bias, validity illusion, expectation bias, subjective validity and much more science was likely involved. But then I should really read the thread, that's a job for tomorrow. 

 

Obviously anyone is free to enjoy any piece of gear, I'm not the cable police. However, when a claim is made it should be backed up. In fairness to Steve I haven't seen any such claims in here and we can't debunk subjective claims like 'better' or 'more alive' anyway. But we can just stick a cable on a scope and see that it's no different from the next. 

 

I get the impression that you will be massively disappointed if you do read the thread. 

We tried 4 different cables and @rumblefish subsequently bought the same cable as I had, based on his experience that evening. 

[bloke_zero]

On 16/07/2021 at 12:49, Aalin said:

What is the use to be able to vary the amount of capacitance of a cable when you know the lowest is the best ?

There are a lot of situations where having the clearest cleanest signal is  not desireable. I'm thinking specifically of tape where you get insteresting peaks and troughs through the frequency range plus a load of saturation effects. Or a valve amp is another example.

I used to feel that it was best to get the cleanest brightest signal recorded and then mix and EQ it, but now I feel like if I can get the sound right first then I'm in a better place. And directly to the point there is something I really like about passive tone control and the interaction with amplifiers and that cable just adds a bit more variation.  More for guitar than bass - I just thought it was interesting!