Unpaid to Play?

[Daz39]

3 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I think professional footballers get paid because they're worth paying. 

So the event organisers don’t think a band here is worth paying for. Why would you want to play under those circumstances?

 

[la bam]

Amazing that nearly all other companies have massively increased their prices (hotels, pubs, bars) yet some still expect bands to play for free. If anything bands prices should have gone well up in line with everyone elses increases.

 

[Al Krow]

Just now, Daz39 said:

So the event organisers don’t think a band here is worth paying for. Why would you want to play under those circumstances?

My bands wouldn't, for sure. But plenty seem to be happy to (including several BC'ers on this thread). I absolutely don't begrudge them and nor do I feel at all threatened by them either.

They're having fun playing as an amateur band to an audience. How is it different to an open mic night?

[chris_b]

If anyone wants to play for nothing hire a studio and play your hearts out.

If you want to support a charity, give them money.

If someone is trying to make money off your labour then you should get your cut, as everyone else connected to the event is.

[Dad3353]

23 minutes ago, chris_b said:

If anyone wants to play for nothing hire a studio and play your hearts out.

If you want to support a charity, give them money.

If someone is trying to make money off your labour then you should get your cut, as everyone else connected to the event is.

Now there's jealousy for you...  

...

 

[Newfoundfreedom]

8 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

I can't see anyone who lives in Evercreech going alcohol free, well not the people i know

 

Definitely sounds like an uphill gig this one. 😅

[JohnDaBass]

I'm 70 years of age and have been playing bass on and off since the age of 13. If I calculate all the money I have spent on basses and gear (including the losses on trades and poor deals) I would probably have to continue playing for another 20 years before I breakeven. So effectively I have been playing for free all these years. Yes I have had great fun, made some great friends, enjoyed some great venues and events AND fed my habit of Bass GAS. Apologies to those who make their living from playing bass but as a Weekend Warrior who considers himself as a mere "hobbist" (still hoping to improve my playing) the minimum I would expect for my services is transport costs plus some food & a couple of pints.

Edited July 4, 2021 by JohnDaBass
Grammar

[Paul S]

Playing for free can sometimes work out to your advantage.  Summer 2019 my fledgeling blues rock trio were invited to play at the Ipswich Maritime Festival - a musical event over 2 days organised by BBC Radio Suffolk and the local council.  Big stage set up on the harbour side, all the backline and sounds were provided and featuring local bands.  No money but a food voucher.  Guitarist Alan is local but for me it was 55 miles each way.  Did we do it?  You bet we did. 

We ended up with the best live demo we could have wished for - on a big stage with BBC written all over it, great sound.  We also reinforced our relationship with Stephen Foster, BBC Radio Suffolk's main guy for this, who subsequently asked us to play at a couple of other festivals last year.  Which of course got cancelled.

Foz has asked us to play at the Maritime Festival again in August.  Will we do it?  You bet we will. 

[Al Krow]

7 hours ago, chris_b said:

If anyone wants to play for nothing hire a studio and play your hearts out.

So you're down £xx for studio hire. What price having the enjoyment of an audience to play to and a fun night out?

Even with this easy example you can see that bands who are happy to play for "free" are getting quite a lot out of it and @Paul S's story above takes that further.

7 hours ago, chris_b said:

If someone is trying to make money off your labour then you should get your cut, as everyone else connected to the event is.

I mean why does anyone bother uploading stuff to YT "for free" when Google is making a fortune from them? 

[Barking Spiders]

I think whether your band gets paid or not partly depends on how established and known you are on the circuit.  When I've been in bands that are an unknown quantity to everyone except family members and the pet dog no way would we have expected owt other than a free pint.

Edited July 4, 2021 by Barking Spiders

[tegs07]

I think I would need to pay to get anyone to listen to me play live.

As others have said though an entire line up of unpaid bands and an alcohol free bar. Throw in a vegan BBQ and you have the worst event ever. 
I think free support acts to a pro headline isn’t a bad way of getting exposure and experience but can’t see all the bands being unpaid as being good for musicians or audience.

 

[Newfoundfreedom]

49 minutes ago, Barking Spiders said:

I think whether your band gets paid or not partly depends on how established and known you are on the circuit.  When I've been in bands that are an unknown quantity to everyone except family members and the pet dog no way would we have expected owt other than a free pint.

Which beggars the question, how do you get established as an unknown band? 

Simple. You play for free until enough people have seen you that you have built up a reputation and a following. Then you can charge for your efforts. 

These kind of threads happen quite often on here every time playing for free is mentioned, and they almost always turn into a debate on whether or not band should play for free in the first place. It's pretty pointless really. 

How does anyone ever get to the stage of getting paid, if they don't first play for free to build an audience? 

Ok there are exceptions with professionally trained musicians with musical degrees. But then they're unlikely to be playing down the Dog and Duck for fifty quid a time anyway. 

There are two totally valid sides to the arguement and neither is right or wrong. 

I can see why professional musos wouldn't want to lose work to bands playing for free. I can also totally see why hobby bands, or bands trying to build a following would do so. 

It's just the nature of the game. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by Newfoundfreedom

[FinnDave]

One of my former bands played paid gigs most weekends for several years. We would occasionally be asked to play 'charity' gigs for free, to which our usual response was 'yes, but we need our expenses covered' and told them the cost of us transporting ourselves and our equipment to and from the venue. We very rarely heard from them again.

I am also a firm believer in the idea that people value you for what you are worth to them - whenever I have reluctantly played a free gig (usually agreed by someone else in the band anxious to do a 'friend' a favour) we have been treated like dirt, on more than occasion the 'organisation' was so poor that we didn't get to play.

If the organisers are paying you a typical gig fee (say £250 or so) then they will make damn sure that they get their money's worth by getting you on stage.

It's not just the money as pay, it is also about respect for the band's time & talent. 

I don't play for 'exposure' (I'd die of cold and embarrassment if I to expose myself on stage!) but for respect, and that comes in hard cash.

[SteveXFR]

It's unlike a farmer to not want to pay for something. Their wallets are normally wide open. 😕

Evercreech is just up the road from Glastonbury, they've heard that farmer Eavis doesn't pay bands at his little annual festival. 

[MacDaddy]

11 minutes ago, SteveXFR said:

It's unlike a farmer to not want to pay for something. Their wallets are normally wide open. 😕

Evercreech is just up the road from Glastonbury, they've heard that farmer Eavis doesn't pay bands at his little annual festival. 

True.

 

 

 

[Newfoundfreedom]

18 minutes ago, FinnDave said:

One of my former bands played paid gigs most weekends for several years. We would occasionally be asked to play 'charity' gigs for free, to which our usual response was 'yes, but we need our expenses covered' and told them the cost of us transporting ourselves and our equipment to and from the venue. We very rarely heard from them again.

I am also a firm believer in the idea that people value you for what you are worth to them - whenever I have reluctantly played a free gig (usually agreed by someone else in the band anxious to do a 'friend' a favour) we have been treated like dirt, on more than occasion the 'organisation' was so poor that we didn't get to play.

If the organisers are paying you a typical gig fee (say £250 or so) then they will make damn sure that they get their money's worth by getting you on stage.

It's not just the money as pay, it is also about respect for the band's time & talent. 

I don't play for 'exposure' (I'd die of cold and embarrassment if I to expose myself on stage!) but for respect, and that comes in hard cash.

Which is a perfectly valid point for someone who has been done the block a bit, and been a musician for many years with plenty of experience under their belt.

Not so much for a 17 year old in their first original material band trying to even find an audience to play to. 

[Daz39]

11 minutes ago, MacDaddy said:

True.

 

 

 

That twitter thread went well until the ultra-capitalist dipstick at the end tweeted. Some people!

[tegs07]

19 minutes ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

Which is a perfectly valid point for someone who has been done the block a bit, and been a musician for many years with plenty of experience under their belt.

Not so much for a 17 year old in their first original material band trying to even find an audience to play to. 

Or someone in their late 40’s/early 50’s who hasn’t played in a band since their teenage years. If I were to form a band again I would expect not to get paid until I got good enough. In the same way as someone who is in an established  but not particularly successful local band would play Glastonbury for free (entry to festival provided for free) or an established middling band would have their management pay or get paid beans to support a big name act on a large tour. It’s all relative to where you are in the food chain.

Edited July 4, 2021 by tegs07

[Al Krow]

40 minutes ago, FinnDave said:

One of my former bands played paid gigs most weekends for several years. We would occasionally be asked to play 'charity' gigs for free, to which our usual response was 'yes, but we need our expenses covered' and told them the cost of us transporting ourselves and our equipment to and from the venue. We very rarely heard from them again.

I am also a firm believer in the idea that people value you for what you are worth to them - whenever I have reluctantly played a free gig (usually agreed by someone else in the band anxious to do a 'friend' a favour) we have been treated like dirt, on more than occasion the 'organisation' was so poor that we didn't get to play.

If the organisers are paying you a typical gig fee (say £250 or so) then they will make damn sure that they get their money's worth by getting you on stage.

It's not just the money as pay, it is also about respect for the band's time & talent. 

I don't play for 'exposure' (I'd die of cold and embarrassment if I to expose myself on stage!) but for respect, and that comes in hard cash.

I totally get this approach Dave. My two bands are exactly the same - we don't play for free.

But we have no right to dictate to or malign other bands playing somewhere free if they want to. No one has to play for free. It's their choice.

[Daz39]

4 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

Or someone in their late 40’s/early 50’s who hasn’t played in a band since their teenage years. If I were to form a band again I would expect not to get paid until I got good enough. In the same way as someone who is in an established  but not particularly successful local band would play Glastonbury for free (entry to festival provided for free) or an established middling band would have their management pay or get paid beans to support a big name act on a large tour. It’s all relative to where you are in the food chain.

If I were to change careers I would still expect to get paid by my new employers, even if I needed time to become fully productive.

[Al Krow]

38 minutes ago, SteveXFR said:

It's unlike a farmer to not want to pay for something. Their wallets are normally wide open. 😕

Evercreech is just up the road from Glastonbury, they've heard that farmer Eavis doesn't pay bands at his little annual festival. 

Wow - hadn't appreciated this!! Is that just some of the bands at Glasto or all of them?

[tegs07]

2 minutes ago, Daz39 said:

If I were to change careers I would still expect to get paid by my new employers, even if I needed time to become fully productive.

In order to progress in my current career I have put in hundreds of hours of unpaid labour over the last couple of decades. People don’t pay for practice in any industry.

Edited July 4, 2021 by tegs07

[SteveXFR]

Although I made the point about bands not getting paid at Glastonbury, all the artist's get a weekend pass for the festival which is around £250 these days and the big bands get TV coverage, posh hotel, helicopter in to site and I'm sure they all sell a ton of records off the back of it. There is a risk of bumping in to Kanye or Chris Martin  back stage and that's not a risk I'd take 

[SteveXFR]

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

Wow - hadn't appreciated this!! Is that just some of the bands at Glasto or all of them?

All of them. Even Kanye and according to him, he's the world's greatest rock star

[Al Krow]

The issue here is a simple one:

For some of us music is a passion and a fun hobby.

For others it's a way of making money, pure and simple.

For the rest it's somewhere in between.

Playing live, these worlds can collide and can come into "conflict".

Live and let live.