Unpaid to Play?

[Newfoundfreedom]

1 minute ago, SteveXFR said:

Although I made the point about bands not getting paid at Glastonbury, all the artist's get a weekend pass for the festival which is around £250 these days and the big bands get TV coverage, posh hotel, helicopter in to site and I'm sure they all sell a ton of records off the back of it. There is a risk of bumping in to Kanye or Chris Martin  back stage and that's not a risk I'd take 

Definitely not worth the risk!

[Daz39]

1 minute ago, tegs07 said:

In order to progress in my current career I have put in hundreds of hours of unpaid labour. People don’t pay for practice in any industry.

Nonsense! I’ve learned my career skills while working and being paid. If I needed training they would pay for that too.

[Newfoundfreedom]

1 minute ago, Daz39 said:

Nonsense! I’ve learned my career skills while working and being paid. If I needed training they would pay for that too.

Then I wish you the best of luck applying this to your musical career. 

 

[Al Krow]

1 minute ago, SteveXFR said:

All of them. Even Kanye and according to him, he's the world's greatest rock star

Just wow!!

So why on earth is anyone having a pop at Wayside Farm then?! 

Surely the "righteous" should first be up in arms against Glasto and all the "traitors" playing for the free there then? But of course they're not!

[Daz39]

1 minute ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

Then I wish you the best of luck applying this to your musical career. 

 

And so you perpetuate the problem!

Your practicing was in the studio/bedroom/garage surely. If you’re being asked to perform your skills for the entertainment of others, you ought to be paid.

[FinnDave]

9 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I totally get this approach Dave. My two bands are exactly the same - we don't play for free.

But we have no right to dictate to or malign other bands playing somewhere free if they want to. No one has to play for free. It's their choice.

I quite agree, I am certainly not laying down the law, just explaining how I see it personally.

[Daz39]

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

Just wow!!

So why on earth is anyone having a pop at Wayside Farm then?! 

Surely the "righteous" should first be up in arms against Glasto and all the "traitors" playing for the free there then? But of course they're not!

Because they know better, apparently. Pressure not to complain. Go look at twitter; many small acts have a hard time having to play for nothing but feeling like they can’t do anything about it.

[tegs07]

Just now, Daz39 said:

Nonsense! I’ve learned my career skills while working and being paid. If I needed training they would pay for that too.

I’ve frequently volunteered to work for no pay as well as putting in many hours of study to get the skills required for the next step up. Any professional has to put in unpaid or very poorly paid time to get the qualifications and experience to progress. A working musician at the dog and duck is doing the plasterers apprenticeship, the TV execs runner days or the surgeons sleep deprived, gruelling junior doctor days but that’s just my opinion.

[yorks5stringer]

10 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

The issue here is a simple one:

For some of us music is a passion and a fun hobby.

For others it's a way of making money, pure and simple.

For the rest it's somewhere in between.

Playing live, these worlds can collide and can come into "conflict".

Live and let live.

Now you've gone and brought Wings into it, not going to end well.....

[Al Krow]

2 minutes ago, Daz39 said:

Because they know better, apparently. Pressure not to complain. Go look at twitter; many small acts have a hard time having to play for nothing but feeling like they can’t do anything about it.

Yes, of course, they can do something about it. They just don't play - it's their choice.

Or if there are these vast amounts to be made then there is nothing stopping them hiring the venue themselves and organising the publicity and catering. Instead of whining. 

[Al Krow]

Just now, yorks5stringer said:

Now you've gone and brought Wings into it, not going to end well.....

Just to balance things, let's bring in one of PM's other tunes...Live and let die 😁

[Barking Spiders]

Question is, why should punters pay to watch bands they've never heard of or which don't have an established following on the circuit. Surely it should be a privilege for any untried and untested band to have the opportunity to perform to an audience?

[Newfoundfreedom]

33 minutes ago, Daz39 said:

And so you perpetuate the problem!

Your practicing was in the studio/bedroom/garage surely. If you’re being asked to perform your skills for the entertainment of others, you ought to be paid.

I don't see a problem to perpetuate. 

If a band wants to play for free. Then it's nobody's business but their own.

If a band wants to charge. Then they have every right to do so.

At the end of the day, everyone is just chasing an audience. 

Some for financial gain.

Some to raise their profile.

And some just for the fun of it. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by Newfoundfreedom

[tegs07]

6 minutes ago, Barking Spiders said:

Question is, why should punters pay to watch bands they've never heard of or which don't have an established following on the circuit. Surely it should be a privilege for any untried and untested band to have the opportunity to perform to an audience?

This is exactly the issue. In the early days I would see a lot of gigs. Most of the ones that I paid for (that had little media coverage) I had seen at various festivals (where I suspect they played for free). I saw plenty of pub bands who I would never have paid to watch as they were crap. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by tegs07

[Happy Jack]

1 hour ago, Daz39 said:

Because they know better, apparently. Pressure not to complain. Go look at twitter; many small acts have a hard time having to play for nothing but feeling like they can’t do anything about it.

And there, in a nutshell, is your problem.

They play for no fee because they WANT to do it. When push comes to shove those musicians (like so many others) face a simple choice ... do I want to play for nothing at a gig that I really really want to play, or would I prefer to sit at home watching TV and being proud of the fact that I "stuck to my principles"? Either way, you get nowt.

I have every sympathy for unemployed or under-employed musicians, but you can't just ignore the fact that they have chosen to try to make a career out of an enjoyable hobby. Some people succeed at this, but they're a vanishingly small percentage of all the musicians, footballers and PC gamers who would just love to be paid lots of money for doing something they would anyway be doing in their spare time.

Putting it really bluntly, if you want to be paid then get a real job.

 

[Daz39]

1 hour ago, tegs07 said:

I’ve frequently volunteered to work for no pay as well as putting in many hours of study to get the skills required for the next step up. Any professional has to put in unpaid or very poorly paid time to get the qualifications and experience to progress. A working musician at the dog and duck is doing the plasterers apprenticeship, the TV execs runner days or the surgeons sleep deprived, gruelling junior doctor days but that’s just my opinion.

There’s a difference between unpaid and very poorly paid. Also a difference between unpaid overtime (implicit in some employment contracts) and volunteering.

[Lozz196]

We did a good few no pay gigs at the start, they were invaluable to us. In front of audiences that weren’t the market we were aiming at we learned how to work as a unit setting up/breaking down in quick changeovers, what we each needed from monitors, how to get through it when we didn’t get that, who laid their gear out in what ways when setting up/breaking down, who needed help on this and who was self sufficient. By the time we started playing the gigs we wanted we quickly moved up the ladder as we worked professionally, all thanks to the experience of those unpaid gigs. It depends on your band, on your plan, and what your aims are as to whether they’re the right move or not, pretty much like everything in life I suppose.

[Doddy]

28 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

Putting it really bluntly, if you want to be paid then get a real job.

And this is ultimately the problem. Being a musician isn't seen as a real job by a lot of people. Even by other musicians apparently. 

[Happy Jack]

Just now, Doddy said:

And this is ultimately the problem. Being a musician isn't seen as a real job by a lot of people. Even by other musicians apparently. 

Agreed, and there's a reason for that.

Meanwhile, here's the view from one of the vanishingly small percentage who managed to make it.

 

[Daz39]

3 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

We did a good few no pay gigs at the start, they were invaluable to us. In front of audiences that weren’t the market we were aiming at we learned how to work as a unit setting up/breaking down in quick changeovers, what we each needed from monitors, how to get through it when we didn’t get that, who laid their gear out in what ways when setting up/breaking down, who needed help on this and who was self sufficient. By the time we started playing the gigs we wanted we quickly moved up the ladder as we worked professionally, all thanks to the experience of those unpaid gigs. It depends on your band, on your plan, and what your aims are as to whether they’re the right move or not, pretty much like everything in life I suppose.

You could have learned the same skills while being paid: it’s not mutually exclusive, you don’t need L plates on your amps!

[tegs07]

5 minutes ago, Daz39 said:

There’s a difference between unpaid and very poorly paid. Also a difference between unpaid overtime (implicit in some employment contracts) and volunteering.

Personally I don’t expect to be paid for skills I haven’t honed nor to be given opportunities I haven’t earned. If I started a career as a musician I would expect to start at the bottom and work my way up. Pub gigs and local events are unlikely to be paid.

[Doddy]

3 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

Agreed, and there's a reason for that.

 

A lot of those reasons are mentioned in this thread.

[Lozz196]

1 minute ago, Daz39 said:

You could have learned the same skills while being paid: it’s not mutually exclusive, you don’t need L plates on your amps!

Definitely, although as an unknown originals punk band of middle aged chaps there weren’t that many people willing to pay us. If the option had been there to gain the experience at paid gigs to the audiences we wanted sure we’d have snapped it up.

We did get a few in between, gigs we wanted but no money and first on the bill as we were unknown Those also helped as the internet then allowed people who’d seen us to start talking about us, suggesting gigs for us and asking promoters to put us on.

On the originals scene it’s very unlikely to get anything other than first on the bill/no money unless you’re mates with the promoter and they know your band is a safe bet. Otherwise what do they know that you’re bringing to their gig. A demo might not really represent your live performance, and even if it does the audiences still need to like you, you can be excellent in every way but sometimes audiences just don’t go for a band. An originals band needs “something” to progress. 

[musicbassman]

1 hour ago, Daz39 said:

And so you perpetuate the problem!

Your practicing was in the studio/bedroom/garage surely. If you’re being asked to perform your skills for the entertainment of others, you ought to be paid.

Here's an analogy, Daz.

Would it be reasonable for a shop to ask window shoppers to pay a fee just for looking in the window?

The answer is clearly no, and similarly as a musician or a band you're setting out your stall of whatever music/entertainment you're offering, and maybe people will come and have a look . Then if a demand builds up because people like what you do maybe you can start charging. But not until that point has been reached. 🙂

 

[Al Krow]

24 minutes ago, Doddy said:

And this is ultimately the problem. Being a musician isn't seen as a real job by a lot of people. Even by other musicians apparently. 

Of course it can be a proper job but you've got to be bloody good to make a career out of it. Not every footballer makes enough to support his family just from playing football. Some make a fortune, as we all know, as do successful pop and rock musicians.

Believe me, classical musicians will, by and large, have paid a small fortune in tuition compared to us largely self-taught bass players. A lot of them are delighted to play for nowt as part of very good amateur orchestras. There is something wonderful about making live music to an audience; not everyone feels they have to be paid to do something they love. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by Al Krow