Unpaid to Play?

[Daz39]

12 minutes ago, musicbassman said:

Here's an analogy, Daz.

Would it be reasonable for a shop to ask window shoppers to pay a fee just for looking in the window?

The answer is clearly no, and similarly as a musician or a band you're setting out your stall of whatever music/entertainment you're offering, and maybe people will come and have a look . Then if a demand builds up because people like what you do maybe you can start charging. But not until that point has been reached. 🙂

 

Poor analogy. You’re being asked to come to a gig and play for the benefit of others. Many such events may well feature paid bar staff, some of whom may just have started doing such work. They still deserve a wage.

[Daz39]

20 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Definitely, although as an unknown originals punk band of middle aged chaps there weren’t that many people willing to pay us. If the option had been there to gain the experience at paid gigs to the audiences we wanted sure we’d have snapped it up.

We did get a few in between, gigs we wanted but no money and first on the bill as we were unknown Those also helped as the internet then allowed people who’d seen us to start talking about us, suggesting gigs for us and asking promoters to put us on.

On the originals scene it’s very unlikely to get anything other than first on the bill/no money unless you’re mates with the promoter and they know your band is a safe bet. Otherwise what do they know that you’re bringing to their gig. A demo might not really represent your live performance, and even if it does the audiences still need to like you, you can be excellent in every way but sometimes audiences just don’t go for a band. An originals band needs “something” to progress. 

But the option wasn’t there because the precedent was set by other bands willing to play for nothing.

[musicbassman]

2 minutes ago, Daz39 said:

Poor analogy. You’re being asked to come to a gig and play for the benefit of others. Many such events may well feature paid bar staff, some of whom may just have started doing such work. They still deserve a wage.

Yes, but the bar staff are serving beer which the customers are already prepared to pay money for !

The band may be serving up music which the customers are only prepared to taste if it's a free sample.

 

[grapefruitmoon]

1 minute ago, musicbassman said:

Yes, but the bar staff are serving beer which the customers are already prepared to pay money for !

The band may be serving up music which the customers are only prepared to taste if it's a free sample.

 

But then the band takes the financial penalty and not the bar owner that booked them. And if the punters do like the band...they still don't get paid.

[SteveXFR]

As I see it, if a profit making event or venue is advertising live music as an attraction the band should always be paid. If a pub uses a band to get more people in to buy beer, it's only right the band gets a share of that extra profit 

[grapefruitmoon]

Just now, SteveXFR said:

As I see it, if a profit making event or venue is advertising live music as an attraction the band should always be paid. If a pub uses a band to get more people in to buy beer, it's only right the band gets a share of that extra profit 

Exactly this!

[musicbassman]

5 minutes ago, grapefruitmoon said:

But then the band takes the financial penalty and not the bar owner that booked them. And if the punters do like the band...they still don't get paid.

Yes - and the only conclusion to reach is that life's a b*tch  ☹️

Edited July 4, 2021 by musicbassman

[Daz39]

7 minutes ago, musicbassman said:

Yes - and the only conclusion to reach is that life's a b*tch  ☹️

No. That’s defeatism borne of late-stage capitalism.

[FinnDave]

11 minutes ago, Daz39 said:

No. That’s defeatism borne of late-stage capitalism.

To be fair, if the band's late on stage, then they should have their pay docked!

[Barking Spiders]

2 hours ago, Happy Jack said:

And there, in a nutshell, is your problem.

They play for no fee because they WANT to do it. When push comes to shove those musicians (like so many others) face a simple choice ... do I want to play for nothing at a gig that I really really want to play, or would I prefer to sit at home watching TV and being proud of the fact that I "stuck to my principles"? Either way, you get nowt.

I have every sympathy for unemployed or under-employed musicians, but you can't just ignore the fact that they have chosen to try to make a career out of an enjoyable hobby. Some people succeed at this, but they're a vanishingly small percentage of all the musicians, footballers and PC gamers who would just love to be paid lots of money for doing something they would anyway be doing in their spare time.

Putting it really bluntly, if you want to be paid then get a real job.

 

I've seen more than enough bad bands at all levels who frankly should've refunded punters their entrance/ticket money  and who also definitely should've been advised to just stick with playing music as a hobby. At 25 I realised I wasn't made of the right stuff to go pro and so listened to some sound advice and went and got a regular job.

[tegs07]

1 hour ago, SteveXFR said:

As I see it, if a profit making event or venue is advertising live music as an attraction the band should always be paid. If a pub uses a band to get more people in to buy beer, it's only right the band gets a share of that extra profit 

The problem is I have seen hundreds of pub gig bands. Apart from very rare occasions they are crap. Even the ones that are competent musicians rarely have any material that will get them out of a pub circuit. If I had to pay I wouldn’t go and I was (less so these days) a member of a dying breed that sought out live bands playing their own material.

The tradition of passing round a hat and allowing bands to sell Merchandise and cd’s is probably the only way a venue can offer some way of a band or artist getting paid if they are an unknown quantity.

Very few bands at pub level playing their own tunes will attract a paying audience.

Edited July 4, 2021 by tegs07

[Doddy]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Of course it can be a proper job but you've got to be bloody good to make a career out it.

I'd be pretty confident in saying that, as well as being bloody good, the people who are making a career out of it generally work a damn sight harder than lots of people who have a 'proper' jobs. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't know how much work goes in to sustaining a career in the entertainment industry. It's still viewed as a hobby, and that's not helped by the bands who happily undercut others and play for a few beers and a night out.

[Happy Jack]

7 minutes ago, Barking Spiders said:

At 25 I realised I wasn't made of the right stuff to go pro and so listened to some sound advice and went and got a regular job.

Apart from being 21 at the time (and sharing a floor in the East End with Bruce Dickinson - yes, that Bruce Dickinson) I went the same route. I had a 40+ year career doing something dull, unglamorous, unpopular, but necessary and turned 'pro' as a musician (for a given value of 'pro') when I retired.

Musicians are artists and entertainers. We are every bit as desirable as actors, sculptors, impressionist painters, and Premiership footballers. Also, about as necessary, as in not really necessary at all.

If I look at the people I have 'needed' over the last few years, I find it easy to spot shopkeepers and delivery drivers, plumbers and roofers, lawyers and surveyors, but I struggle to remember a single occasion on which I genuinely needed a professional musician. 

Right now, I am imagining this topic transported to PlumbChat where dozens of plumbers are earnestly bemoaning the fact that they are losing business to enthusiastic Weekend Plumbers who will fix your dripping tap for little or nothing, just a mug of tea (with four sugars, please), before returning to their mundane jobs on Monday morning.

 

[SteveXFR]

20 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

The problem is I have seen hundreds of pub gig bands. Apart from very rare occasions they are crap. Even the ones that are competent musicians rarely have any material that will get them out of a pub circuit. If I had to pay I wouldn’t go and I was (less so these days) a member of a dying breed that sought out live bands playing their own material.

 

Pubs don't have to charge entry to profit from bands. They attract more people in who like to sing along to awful 80s pop songs and drink beer. There's some awful pubs around here that no one would go to if it wasn't for the bands on a Friday and Saturday night 

[Lozz196]

I think there is a difference between originals bands & covers bands. 

In my old punk covers band we used to contact new venues asking for a gig and tell them we charged £200 for the first one as an introductory offer, after that they could determine our worth if they wanted us back. They knew the music so knew what to expect, and must have known if we were suitable for their venue/customers. We were always asked back.

Whereas with originals bands, promoter asks a starting out unknown band “what do you bring to my event”. How do they justify a fee. “Well we’ve not played many gigs yet, don’t have a demo and this gig isn’t in our home town so we’re not bringing in many extra punters”.  I can see why promoters wouldn’t bust a gut to get their wallets out. They could of course lie, but then the promoter could too…..

 

 

 

[peteb]

24 minutes ago, Doddy said:

It's still viewed as a hobby, and that's not helped by the bands who happily undercut others and play for a few beers and a night out.

Exactly. 

Look at it another way, just how bad must a covers band be to be prepared to play a standard pub gig for no money? 

[Al Krow]

Btw, just for the record, loving the way a lot of really good points are being made in a very civilised way on both sides of this topic, which I appreciate is an emotive one.

We might even be in danger of hearing one another! Good one BC. 

[Newfoundfreedom]

15 minutes ago, peteb said:

Exactly. 

Look at it another way, just how bad must a covers band be to be prepared to play a standard pub gig for no money? 

They don't need to be bad at all. They could in fact be better than many paid bands.

What some people seem to be forgetting, is that some people play just for the love of it. Money is secondary, if an issue at all. 

My prevoius band were a covers band playing English / American covers here in Bulgaria, to a mostly Bulgarian audience. We built up quite a following and were even featured in a local newspaper. 

Every penny we ever earned was donated to a local children's charity. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by Newfoundfreedom

[Lozz196]

23 minutes ago, peteb said:

Exactly. 

Look at it another way, just how bad must a covers band be to be prepared to play a standard pub gig for no money? 

Yes I’ve heard some hideous covers bands that have very good reputations and get paid very well. So those that can’t command a fee…….

[peteb]

54 minutes ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

They don't need to be bad at all. They could in fact be better than many paid bands.

What some people seem to be forgetting, is that some of us play just for the love of it. Money is secondary, if an issue at all. 

My prevoius band were a covers band playing Anglo / American covers here in Bulgaria. We built up quite a following and were even featured in a local newspaper. 

Every penny we ever earned (usually by passing around a bucket) was donated to a local children's charity. 

Donating the money you make from playing is very admirable. However, in many parts of the UK there is an established market for live bands playing in pubs and around here, all the good bands (and there are several) get paid. 

This sets a value for live music and creates a market that works reasonably well. Decent bands get paid, punters get to have a good night out listening to a good band and pubs sell more in beer than they pay the bands. The out and out hobbyists who are prepared to play for nothing just distort that market. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by peteb

[Newfoundfreedom]

1 minute ago, peteb said:

Donating the money you make from playing is very admirable. However, in many parts of the UK there is an established market for live bands playing in pubs and around here, all the good bands (and there are several) get paid. 

This sets a value for live music and creates a market that works reasonably well. Decent bands get paid, punters get to have a good night out listening to a good band and pubsl sell more in beer than they pay the bands. The out and out hobbyists who are prepared to play for nothing just distort that market. 

And they have every right to do so. Whether the paid bands like it or not 

How else are unknown bands going to build up enough of a following to be one of the paid bands? 

[peteb]

25 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Yes I’ve heard some hideous covers bands that have very good reputations and get paid very well. So those that can’t command a fee…….

I don't know where some people go to see bands. There are plenty of decent cover bands around here (regardless of if you like the material or not). There are also some awful ones, but if you take an interest and follow what is happening in the local music scene, there is no reason why you shouldn't have some decent musical entertainment whenever you go out for a few beers. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by peteb

[barkin]

Oh good, we haven't seen this one for a while...

[Happy Jack]

1 hour ago, Lozz196 said:

Yes I’ve heard some hideous covers bands that have very good reputations and get paid very well. So those that can’t command a fee…….

 

[tegs07]

1 hour ago, peteb said:

Decent bands get paid

That’s all folks. Nothing to do with Judas hobbyists. Get good. Get paid. It takes time and starts from scratch. Some go from zero to a salary. Most don’t. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by tegs07