Unpaid to Play?

[peteb]

 

49 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

I saw the Hamsters a few times. They were professional musicians who toured around the country playing dedicated music venues, rather than local pubs putting live music on a weekend. They had a policy of insisting that punters had to pay to see them and refused to play places that didn't charge for admission. 

Insert: So your saying that they were a band that got good enough to attract a following and charge for entry.
 

 

I agree with them that people should ideally at least pay a nominal fee to see live music, but unfortunately that is not necessarily how the general local pub gig market works. 

Insert: See above

Personally I believe making punters pay to watch unknown bands in pubs will be a barrier to entry for most artists starting their career in music, particularly artists that don’t do covers. 

No, the Hamsters were a touring band of pros who worked with promoters. This is a completely different market to a local pub live music circuit. How many times do you need this explaining to you? 

In an ideal world, perhaps pubs would have someone on the door and make punters pay a couple of quid to  see the band. But that is not the way the market works these days and is not going to happen. However, punters still go to see bands playing covers in pubs, which helps landlords to sell beer. Therefore these bands should be paid. 

If you are an unknown originals band then you should be playing events promoted to your potential audience. These days you are always going to struggle to find an audience playing pubs (although I daresay that there is the odd exception). There is a reason why pubs generally book cover bands. 

[neepheid]

2 hours ago, tegs07 said:

Edit: As I have said this exists in every industry. In my own career I have seen endless paper CCNA and MCSE guys shocked that no company will let them loose on their network. They start on a help desk and work their way up. The hours spent and cash spent on the exams is the start not the end of the journey.

Yes, but even help desk workers get paid (and yes, I have sometimes wondered why/what for).  This analogy doesn't work.

[tegs07]

8 minutes ago, peteb said:

 

No, the Hamsters were a touring band of pros who worked with promoters. This is a completely different market to a local pub live music circuit. How many times do you need this explaining to you? 

In an ideal world, perhaps pubs would have someone on the door and make punters pay a couple of quid to  see the band. But that is not the way the market works these days and is not going to happen. However, punters still go to see bands playing covers in pubs, which helps landlords to sell beer. Therefore these bands should be paid. 

If you are an unknown originals band then you should be playing events promoted to your potential audience. These days you are always going to struggle to find an audience playing pubs (although I daresay that there is the odd exception). There is a reason why pubs generally book cover bands. 

So The Hamsters emerged fully formed as pro musicians paid from the offset with promoters and an audience waiting for them. They were never teenagers with their mum dropping them down the local to play bad AC/DC covers with their college mates? I know some musicians with agents playing original music and some playing covers. They all started playing for free and were thankful of the venues that let them play.

How many times do you need this explained to you if your going to be rude?

Edited July 5, 2021 by tegs07

[tegs07]

14 minutes ago, neepheid said:

Yes, but even help desk workers get paid (and yes, I have sometimes wondered why/what for).  This analogy doesn't work.

The anology is CCNA not a ticket to network engineer.

Amateur musician is not a ticket to paid gigs. Simply having some skills doesn’t mean you get paid for them. It takes time and some luck.

I have a bass and a guitar next to me. In my garage I have woodworking tools. I’m not going to get paid straight off for using either as I am an amateur.

Edited July 5, 2021 by tegs07

[neepheid]

Just now, tegs07 said:

The anology is CCNA not a ticket to network engineer.

Amateur musician is not a ticket to paid gigs. Simply having some skills doesn’t mean you get paid for them. It takes time and some luck.

So you're going to completely skip over the part where the "beginners/amateurs" in your analogy still get paid then?  Why should "amateur network engineers" get paid but amateur musicians not?

[tegs07]

Just now, neepheid said:

So you're going to completely skip over the part where the "beginners/amateurs" in your analogy still get paid then?  Why should "amateur network engineers" get paid but amateur musicians not?

Amateur network engineers don’t get paid. They have to do something else to get paid until they get the experience. The same with amateur musicians and amateur carpenters and amateur actors and amateur photographers and ….

[peteb]

11 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

So The Hamsters emerged fully formed as pro musicians paid from the offset with promoters and an audience waiting for them. They were never teenagers with their mum dropping them down the local to play bad AC/DC covers with their college mates? I know some musicians with agents playing original music and some playing covers. They all started playing for free and were thankful of the venues that let them play.

How many times do you need this explained to you if your going to be rude?

Yes, I believe that the Hamsters did pretty much emerge fully formed as pro musicians, paid from the offset and working with promoters. I am sure that they built up an audience from playing paid gigs, but I have no idea what they did as teenagers. Wasn’t the bandleader / guitarist (Barry something or other??) a former journalist with a load of contacts?

I didn’t get paid for my first few gigs at youth clubs and specially promoted events. Then I played the originals circuit, mainly playing clubs where we usually got paid (even though we often lost money travelling to gigs). Remember, this was a while ago and very different times for live music. I was always paid whenever we played a pub.

3 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

The anology is CCNA not a ticket to network engineer.

Amateur musician is not a ticket to paid gigs. Simply having some skills doesn’t mean you get paid for them. It takes time and some luck.

That is certainly true for making money from touring or selling records, but not playing down the Dog & Duck on a Saturday night! 

[tegs07]

12 minutes ago, peteb said:

Yes, I believe that the Hamsters did pretty much emerge fully formed as pro musicians, paid from the offset and working with promoters. I am sure that they built up an audience from playing paid gigs

From Wikipedia:

They performed their first live show at the Cliffs Pavilion, Southend-on-Sea, on 1 April 1987, and their last at The Half Moon, Putney on 1 April 2012, exactly 25 years later. They initially played in local pubs with no ambitions to take themselves seriously or to turn professional.

Note: professional simply means paid or paid enough to give up your day job. Getting to the point of being paid or paid enough will start somewhere. Usually this is as an amateur and for fun not cash.

Edited July 5, 2021 by tegs07

[neepheid]

4 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

Amateur network engineers don’t get paid. They have to do something else to get paid until they get the experience. The same with amateur musicians and amateur carpenters and amateur actors and amateur photographers and ….

I'm tired of this; you think you're right and I think you're wrong so I fear this is going to go round in circles until one of us hurls.

[Newfoundfreedom]

This thread has just turned into pointless bickering now. 

Ridiculous really. Some bands play for free. Some don't. End of 

It's been fun.

I'm out. 

[dave_bass5]

Ive got quite a few hobbies that don’t pay. 

Ive never got the ‘spent loads of money learning to play and now i expect to get it all back, and then some’. If your doing it as a career this sort of gig won’t even be on your radar, its not a big deal. People can make their own mind up and be happy with that choice. 

I did one once for free and got 7 bookings from it. I loved playing in front of 1000+ people and made loads of money I probably wouldn’t have done had these people in the crowd not seen me. Yeah, that old ‘exposure’ thing. If you’re good it can work, if you’re  dross of course its not going to get you more work. 

So when all these young bands are taking these gigs, it’s because they just want gigs and to play live, and hopefully get the experience they might not otherwise get. Isnt that something we have all wanted or gone through?

Some people make out every gig they have ever played, from day one, has been an earner. Thats just BS IMO, we all started somewhere. 

Having been to many local festivals,  I’ve often come away thinking ‘I hope that lot weren’t getting paid’

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by dave_bass5

[peteb]

4 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

From Wikipedia:

They performed their first live show at the Cliffs Pavilion, Southend-on-Sea, on 1 April 1987, and their last at The Half Moon, Putney on 1 April 2012, exactly 25 years later. They initially played in local pubs with no ambitions to take themselves seriously or to turn professional.

 

Well the Cliffs Pavilion is a theatre and while the Half Moon is technically a pub, it is / was one of the longest running live music venues in London. 

Anyway, enough already. I've got work to do (that I also get paid for) and haven't got time to be arguing about half forgotten RnB bands from 20 years ago! 

[neepheid]

2 minutes ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

This thread has just turned into pointless bickering now. 

Ridiculous really. Some bands play for free. Some don't. End of 

It's been fun.

I'm out. 

Godspeed - I hope you're well strapped onto that tall horse you're sitting on...

[tegs07]

58 minutes ago, neepheid said:

I'm tired of this; you think you're right and I think you're wrong so I fear this is going to go round in circles until one of us hurls.

I don’t care if I am right or wrong.
If there are venues out there that will give an amateur musician a break I am happy.

If an amateur can turn pro and start to earn money even better.

If an amateur plays for fun and gets pleasure from doing so again this is fine.

Edited July 5, 2021 by tegs07

[Rich]

Glass half empty... it's an unpaid gig.

Glass half full... it's a free rehearsal space.

[Ricky 4000]

32 minutes ago, peteb said:

Anyway, enough already. I've got work to do (that I also get paid for) and haven't got time to be arguing about half forgotten RnB bands from 20 years ago! 

Awww, come on! 😛

[spike]

I have nothing to add to this thread except that years ago I saw The Hamsters supporting Dr Feelgood at the Cambridge Corn Exchange. They were so tight I thought there's no way Dr Feelgood can follow this. Then Dr Feelgood came on and blew them away. 

[Doddy]

30 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Some people make out every gig they have every played, from day one, has been an earner. Thats just BS IMO, we all started somewhere.

How is that BS?  My first gig was subbing for my 1st teacher, and I was paid. I got offered more gigs by them, which were all paid. I then started to get recommended for other paid work, and so on.....

I can probably count the number of free gigs I've done in the last 23 on both hands. I stopped doing them after I did a couple of one night theatre shows for nothing with the promise of more work,  which just resulted in more offers for freebies. Since then, I've always asked for, at the very least, my expenses covered.  

[nilebodgers]

13 hours ago, tegs07 said:

Back in the day I would pay to see the hamsters frequently even though plenty of other middle aged  blokes were playing blues/ rock for free in pubs. I would even drive miles after work. The Hamsters had an audience and made a living playing pubs and bike shows etc as they were better than the amateurs. The vast amount of people playing pubs won’t make a living playing their music. I don’t feel this is down to the competition playing for free.

I remember seeing them once, I think on their farewell tour. They were streets ahead of any other cover band playing pubs that I've ever seen.

[dave_bass5]

13 minutes ago, Doddy said:

How is that BS?  My first gig was subbing for my 1st teacher, and I was paid. I got offered more gigs by them, which were all paid. I then started to get recommended for other paid work, and so on.....

I can probably count the number of free gigs I've done in the last 23 on both hands. I stopped doing them after I did a couple of one night theatre shows for nothing with the promise of more work,  which just resulted in more offers for freebies. Since then, I've always asked for, at the very least, my expenses covered.  

Well I said ‘some’, not all, but you have proven my point. So what if you got paid for your first gig, you also have done free gigs, and it seems they were done to help get more work. So not even you have always been paid.

Point made. 

[tegs07]

Without being pedantic I am struggling with two bits of logic:

1. Amateur musicians are affecting the careers of professional musicians even though all professional musicians started their careers as amateurs.

2. Amateur musicians should always be paid. Even if they are at the work experience stage of their career and are not very good. I love watching pub bands and bands at community events, particularly if I know people involved but have to be honest there are very few I would pay to watch.

[MacDaddy]

11 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

Without being pedantic I am struggling with two bits of logic:

1. Amateur musicians are affecting the careers of professional musicians even though all professional musicians started their careers as amateurs.

2. Amateur musicians should always be paid. Even if they are at the work experience stage of their career and are not very good. I love watching pub bands and bands at community events, particularly if I know people involved but have to be honest there are very few I would pay to watch.

@Doddy didn't did he.

Edited July 5, 2021 by MacDaddy
.

[MacDaddy]

re. The Hamsters. Surprisingly well endorsed for a covers band.

[ubit]

Just think of the exposure you will get! Great , my rent is five exposures a month!

[Doddy]

7 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Well I said ‘some’, not all, but you have proven my point. So what if you got paid for your first gig, you also have done free gigs, and it seems they were done to help get more work. So not even you have always been paid.

Point made. 

To be fair though, you said it was BS that people earn from day one, which is clearly not the case. Yes, I did a couple of freebies when I was 18 but I was still earning from all my other gigs. I also realised very quickly that playing for nothing gets you a reputation as someone who will play for nothing.