Jaco Documentary

[drTStingray]

34 minutes ago, TheGreek said:

Don't forget to thank Mr Zawinul for introducing Jaco to Cocaine which caused his downfall.

Really? There is an issue with recreational drug use interfering with treatment for mental illnesses, but my dear old mum had bipolar and never went near a recreational drug in her life. Her behaviour was at times as outrageous and loopy as Jaco’s - although far fewer people saw it. 

We should beware conflating recreational drug usage and mental illness, and also demonising people for drug issues (there are plenty of people with gambling, alcohol and other addictions which also ruin lives). 

Im also very dubious of viewing these matters as greatly important when there are far more positives - after all some of the great composers of the classical genre had mental health issues. 
 

 

Edited July 15, 2021 by drTStingray

[TheGreek]

I worked in the Drug & Alcohol service for 15 years - there's lots of evidence that using recreational drugs exacerbates existing MH problems.

As an example as Cannabis got stronger so there has an increase in MH issues. In the 80s there were virtually no Cannabis users in MH services, now there are thousands.

Jaco's MH issues didn't surface till he met Joe and joined Weather Report. Prior to joining he didn't even drink.

[drTStingray]

4 hours ago, TheGreek said:

I worked in the Drug & Alcohol service for 15 years - there's lots of evidence that using recreational drugs exacerbates existing MH problems.

As an example as Cannabis got stronger so there has an increase in MH issues. In the 80s there were virtually no Cannabis users in MH services, now there are thousands.

Jaco's MH issues didn't surface till he met Joe and joined Weather Report. Prior to joining he didn't even drink.

I agree it’s a known fact that rec drug use can exacerbate pre-existing mental health conditions - it also creates behavioural issues in many, which I think is what you’re getting at. it’s known to interfere with treatment of MH conditions. I think where we differ on this is Jaco immediately became world famous after he joined Weather Report (I’d never heard of him before that and didn’t buy his solo work until much later) - one of the issues with bipolar is having delusions around ‘grand thoughts’. Where Jaco differed from most is he was already considered one of (if not) the best in the world (from the Heavy Weather album and Birdland especially) - with a mental health condition, the outcome should not be surprising. I agree the rec drug use may have exacerbated a condition and behaviour.

However I think it’s wholly wrong to focus on the negatives on this when the body of music is so good (and for me, it’s been part of a shaping of my own bass style which wouldn’t be there without it). That’s why I’m so pleased the documentary focuses on the positives. 

Some members of almost every well known band from the era of my formative youth (say 68 - 78 and even before (back to the Shadows and beyond)) have either had problems from rec drug or alcohol abuse (or other issues) - however the fact I know it’s there is one thing, but I don’t feel inclined to demonise the entire industry because of it (or Joe Zawinul). It’s extremely negative and unnecessary.

Handling fame (and falling from it) and the excessive strains of touring (just one angle) are extremely difficult psychologically for many - if you already have a mental health problem that’s even more difficult.  
 

 

[bamboscha]

@drTStingrayCome on, now. I haven't seen any evidence of "demonizing" or "focussing on negatives" in this thread. What are we supposed to do, just not talk about it?

You're "dubious of viewing these matters as greatly important"? Christ! The poor bloke died at 35, in circumstances that were undoubtedly linked to drink and drug abuse, and state of mental health of course. I'd say that was important.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding where you're coming from and if so, I'm sorry. But it feels like we're being told off for mentioning Jaco's problems. Don't get me wrong, I'm not being sanctimonious here and I don't look down on peoples lifestyle choices. I've been a musician all my working life and I've battled with the rock 'n roll lifestyle. It's not all good. It should be talked about. Me and @TheGreek having a little dig at his louche ways ain't gonna put a dint in his legacy. We all love him , I think.

Anyway, come on chaps. Let's get back to the equine licking theme and have a bit of this....did my nut in the first time I heard it, courtesy of my dad's bonkers record collection........

 

[Stub Mandrel]

On 'people who do Jaco better than Jaco', I'm reminded of Stevie Ray Vaughan and Jimi Hendrix.

Much as I loved SRV's music, one was the innovator, the other was the imitator.

It's the creation of a new paradigm in music which is the real achievement. Einstein conceptualised relativity, but others too it further - does that diminish Einstein's achievement?

As for Jaco's mental illness and drug abuse issues; they are desperately sad but no doubt as intrinsic to his character and creativity as Van Gogh's, for example, and cannot be bignored to understand him in the round.

[police squad]

That's the first time I've ever listened to Jaco play.

What struck me was the drumming. Such swing.

Thoroughly enjoyed it and will go and check out more of Jaco's playing

[Bass Culture]

Like many of my age (I'm 58) I started playing bass at about the time Jaco was becoming very high profile.  I remember reading his interview in International Musician (I think) where he claimed he 'invented the f**king fretless bass' or words to that effect.  I bought his three solo albums and a good few Weather Report ones too.  I ended up with a fretless Aria SB900 as my main bass for about 15 years.  Slowly but surely though, I came to realise there was an awful lot of the music that I just didn't really - how can one put this? - like very much.  I admired his playing but it never really made my heart sing.  And then I heard his playing with Joni Mitchell - specifically Shadows and Light.  And that's the Jaco I love, and still love.  There's nothing I can say about him that's going to be original or relevant or more insightful than anything that's already been said and written about him by many much more qualified then I.  But to the naysayers I would simply point you in the direction of 'Refuge of the Roads' on Joni's Hejira album.  I've never heard anyone play like that before or since.  Stunningly melodic, beautiful and touching.  The feel, the note choice; in fact, the absolute rightness of every musical choice he makes on that track still leave me gob-smacked. 'Slang' - so what?  'Refuge of the Roads' (and there's others of course) - unsurpassable.  And yes, he was funky as f**k too. 

Edited July 16, 2021 by Bass Culture

[4000]

9 hours ago, bamboscha said:

@drTStingrayCome on, now. I haven't seen any evidence of "demonizing" or "focussing on negatives" in this thread. What are we supposed to do, just not talk about it?

You're "dubious of viewing these matters as greatly important"? Christ! The poor bloke died at 35, in circumstances that were undoubtedly linked to drink and drug abuse, and state of mental health of course. I'd say that was important.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding where you're coming from and if so, I'm sorry. But it feels like we're being told off for mentioning Jaco's problems. Don't get me wrong, I'm not being sanctimonious here and I don't look down on peoples lifestyle choices. I've been a musician all my working life and I've battled with the rock 'n roll lifestyle. It's not all good. It should be talked about. Me and @TheGreek having a little dig at his louche ways ain't gonna put a dint in his legacy. We all love him , I think.

Anyway, come on chaps. Let's get back to the equine licking theme and have a bit of this....did my nut in the first time I heard it, courtesy of my dad's bonkers record collection........

 

Once upon a time I used to convince myself I liked Weather Report, because, well, you know, you had to and, well, Jaco…….I’m glad I eventually admitted to myself that I find them nigh on unlistenable much of the time. And it’s not because I don’t like jazz(I grew up with it), or fusion (love plenty of other stuff, e.g. RTF, Mahavishnu). I just think they’re the worst of all worlds, for me personally. 
 

[Stub Mandrel]

2 hours ago, Bass Culture said:

There's nothing I can say about him that's going to be original or relevant or more insightful than anything that's already been said and written about him by many much more qualified then I.  But to the naysayers I would simply point you in the direction of 'Refuge of the Roads' on Joni's Hejira album.  I've never heard anyone play like that before or since.  Stunningly melodic, beautiful and touching. 

Heavy Weather was an inspiration to me (along with School Days etc.) when I was trying and failing to become a prodigy in the early '90s.

But musically Hejira knocks them out of the pitch.

[SteveK]

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=a+remark+you+made&&view=detail&mid=0C7549DFC4038667779D0C7549DFC4038667779D&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Da%2Bremark%2Byou%2Bmade%26FORM%3DHDRSC3

'A Remark You Made' from Heavy Weather is one of the most sublime pieces of music.

Edit: Obviously there's a trick to inserting links😕

Edited July 16, 2021 by SteveK

[Dad3353]

40 minutes ago, SteveK said:

...Edit: Obviously there's a trick to inserting links😕

No trick to it, as long as they're U-Tube 'Share' links  ... 

One piece I've learned (well, after a fashion...) on my own fretless. It's a joy to play, imagining in my tiny head all the other parts. Splendid Stuff; Music of the Gods. 

Edited July 16, 2021 by Dad3353

[peteb]

20 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

On 'people who do Jaco better than Jaco', I'm reminded of Stevie Ray Vaughan and Jimi Hendrix.

Much as I loved SRV's music, one was the innovator, the other was the imitator.

To be fair, SRV wore his influences on his sleeve and there are plenty of other guitar players you could say that about him as well as Hendrix (Albert King, Lonnie Mack. Lightnin’ Hopkins, etc). 

Doesn't stop him being my all-time favourite guitar player (along with EVH), nor does it make me appreciate Hendrix or Albert King, etc any the less. 

[Hellzero]

A Remark You Made is also my favourite track by Jaco and a delight to play indeed.

[lowdown]

On that documentary video,  Joe Zawinul said that when he composes, or when he improvises (because he composes after improvising - his words),

he has in mind the musicians tone/sound who he is writing for. 'A Remark You Made', is a perfect example of that....

Jaco's tone and feel really shine out. Everything about him sings on that track.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bilbo]

Transcriptions of a couple of the tunes mentioned above. 

https://bilbosbassbites.co.uk/refuge-of-the-road-joni-mitchell/

 

https://bilbosbassbites.co.uk/a-remark-you-made-weather-report/

Edited July 17, 2021 by Bilbo

[TheGreek]

A remark you made reminds me of Muzak. In the early days of MTV they used it when covering the Paris - Dakar rally. 

I can't listen to it anymore.

[bamboscha]

2 hours ago, TheGreek said:

A remark you made reminds me of Muzak. In the early days of MTV they used it when covering the Paris - Dakar rally. 

I can't listen to it anymore.

Wow! MTV used to show the Paris-Dakar? I guess I missed that. I was born the year MTV launched. I really like the idea of Remark You Made set to Paris-Dakar footage. Might have to make my own mock-up. 🤣

[SpondonBassed]

Thanks for the link Owen.

I had to bail having forced myself to watch two thirds the way through.  I wanted to give him a fair shot because I have never enjoyed his style other than when he played with Joni Mitchell.  I'm still not a fan of The Chicken or Portrait of Tracy.  I'm probably not intelligent enough to appreciate their ilk.

Sorry.

[Owen]

Don't worry. There are only two kinds of music. Good music and music I do not like

[SpondonBassed]

3 minutes ago, owen said:

Don't worry. There are only two kinds of music. Good music and music I do not like

That's quite a good way of looking at it.  I like that.