Amp gimmicks that work

[Sparky Mark]

6 hours ago, agedhorse said:

Actually, it wasn’t an amp design issue. The LEDs were an early SiC type, some ended up with intermittent lead bonds to the die inside the LED package. This defect inside the part didn’t even begin to show up until after about 3 years of production and thousands of Streamliners sold, and affected maybe 10% of the amps, and we replaced them at no charge for over 10 years. In North America, when an amp comes in for service, we still replace them at no charge.

 

Yes, it was unfortunate. There was no way that we could have predicted it. Fortunately most players were more forgiving.

Okay, so it was a product design issue of which the actual amplifier design was only one aspect. Unfortunately, early adoption of these LEDs for aesthetics purposes only, resulted in this all too obvious fault in an otherwise perfectly satisfactory product.

It's also unfortunate that not everyone lives in North America and able to benefit from the free repair service. 

Edited August 1, 2021 by Sparky Mark

[agedhorse]

10 hours ago, Sparky Mark said:

Okay, so it was a product design issue of which the actual amplifier design was only one aspect. Unfortunately, early adoption of these LEDs for aesthetics purposes only, resulted in this all too obvious fault in an otherwise perfectly satisfactory product.

It's also unfortunate that not everyone lives in North America and able to benefit from the free repair service. 

It had nothing to do with the amplifier design, it was a defect inside the LED itself. Other manufacturers of products such as cars and appliances ran into the same issue with this part, and so did we on one product where the part was used as an indicator a (not for aesthetics). The replacement part did not have this problem.

 

Yes, it was purely aesthetic. Many players liked the look and we chose not to make another simple, boring black box. Unfortunately, we were impacted by defective parts.

 

We honored warranties on these LEDs all over the world, and I sent out replacement parts globally for almost 10 years at no cost as well (including to Basschat members who contacted us).

 

Why do you have such negativity towards me, did I do something to you personally to deserve this kind of treatment? Actually, I have seen (and personally experienced) a general negativity and hostility here towards Americans over the past few years on Basschat. It's not welcoming, embracing or particularly friendly. 

[Sparky Mark]

2 hours ago, agedhorse said:

It had nothing to do with the amplifier design, it was a defect inside the LED itself. Other manufacturers of products such as cars and appliances ran into the same issue with this part, and so did we on one product where the part was used as an indicator a (not for aesthetics). The replacement part did not have this problem.

 

Yes, it was purely aesthetic. Many players liked the look and we chose not to make another simple, boring black box. Unfortunately, we were impacted by defective parts.

 

We honored warranties on these LEDs all over the world, and I sent out replacement parts globally for almost 10 years at no cost as well (including to Basschat members who contacted us).

 

Why do you have such negativity towards me, did I do something to you personally to deserve this kind of treatment? Actually, I have seen (and personally experienced) a general negativity and hostility here towards Americans over the past few years on Basschat. It's not welcoming, embracing or particularly friendly. 

Dear Andy,

 

You've made a couple of serious accusations that I feel I have to counter.

It's obvious from your emotional reaction that you invest personally extremely heavily in your designs. I understand that and have the greatest respect and admiration for your brilliantly detailed contributions both here and on Talkbass. You express your views very directly at times but they always come from the right place. 

My critical observation of a feature you have to admit was problematic is definitely not a personal attack on either you or any American citizens. I  have spent the majority of my adult life working for US entities both on mainland USA and around the world and the vast majority of my instrument collection are US designed and built (Fender, Gibson, Musicman, Rickenbacker, Tom Clement). I am most definitely a US fan. 

However, sometimes things just don't work out as planned for many reasons as you have described and the way this issue was apparently dealt with by GB is laudable but doesn't mean it never happened. I'm sure we learn more from the things that go wrong than go right first time; as I have by starting this debate in a thread created to discuss amp gimmicks that did work. 

Yours sincerely, 

Mark

[agedhorse]

Mark - it was YOUR accusation about the product design (amp design) being an issue which was not the case. It was a documented problem with the LED itself that was addressed when it was discovered. Of course it happened, nobody ever said that it didn't. It affected about 10% of the amps, which means that 90% of the owners never had any problems. That's what I have an objection to because it's factually incorrect.

[chris_b]

I wouldn't buy an amp without a DI and mute button. I don't call those gimmicks or optional features.

 

I like an amp to have a fabulous baked in tone, without excessive use of the EQ. So far I haven't needed anything else. Any mid controls (high and low) are usually unused on my amps, but IMO the HPF's being added by some designers is a very interesting option.

[chris7273]

It really depends on the intended use. for example, I have bought recently a Yamaha THR 30 wireless for home practice and for the holidays. 
It’s packed with a lot of geek functions but I like it a lot. I don’t know if I would need these options for a “real” amp (rehearsal and gig) but it’s a well thought concept for the planned use of this practice amp : 
- Bluetooth for smartphone backing track

- Bluetooth for hidden options setup

- 5 users settings (memory)

- aux in input

- battery

- compatible with line6 relay G10

- light

- handle on top

- tuner

- line out stereo but no Di

- usb out 

 

 

 

 

 

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, chris7273 said:

It really depends on the intended use. for example, I have bought recently a Yamaha THR 30 wireless for home practice and for the holidays. 
It’s packed with a lot of geek functions but I like it a lot. I don’t know if I would need these options for a “real” amp (rehearsal and gig) but it’s a well thought concept for the planned use of this practice amp : 
- Bluetooth for smartphone backing track

- Bluetooth for hidden options setup

- 5 users settings (memory)

- aux in input

- battery

- compatible with line6 relay G10

- light

- handle on top

- tuner

- line out stereo but no Di

- usb out 

 

Bluetooth on an amp (or any other supposedly "professional" piece of musical equipment) is a really bad idea mainly because so far the security on these products has been pretty much zero.

 

Imagine somebody in the audience Bluejacking your set up and then messing about with the settings or streaming some music from their phone through the amp because they didn't like your band?

[Sparky Mark]

11 hours ago, agedhorse said:

Mark - it was YOUR accusation about the product design (amp design) being an issue which was not the case. It was a documented problem with the LED itself that was addressed when it was discovered. Of course it happened, nobody ever said that it didn't. It affected about 10% of the amps, which means that 90% of the owners never had any problems. That's what I have an objection to because it's factually incorrect.

Understood, but I will add that new component selection is most definitely the responsibilty and a critical part of the design process. No component without a fully proven reliability record  would make it onto the BOMs of products I am involved with. 

[Woodinblack]

29 minutes ago, Sparky Mark said:

Understood, but I will add that new component selection is most definitely the responsibilty and a critical part of the design process. No component without a fully proven reliability record  would make it onto the BOMs of products I am involved with. 

 

I think that is a bit harsh. I used to work with an electronics company in the 80s that made CCD pipe inspection cameras. They were the state of the art, however they had quite a high failure rate, and that is because that was the state of the art. When we first started we had to have a gold bonding machine to connect the CCDs to the package. Of course, we could have not used any component without a fully proven reliability record, in which case we would have been sticking a kid with a notebook into a sewer, there weren't other options.

 

Some companies are using componants that have just come out, most of the time everything is fine, but not every company can just sit that far behind the curve.

 

In this case (and I know nothing about it), it doesn't seem unreasonable to select some LEDs to do a job and then find that 3 years later they are breaking down, if you then try to remedy the situation - that is how manufacturing is. Especially when that is not a critical part as in this case. You would not expect them to be failing, and 99.9% of the time you would be right.

 

[Woodinblack]

Tuners. I have switched to an ABM600 (and I also have a CTM100), but I really miss the tuner on the TC450, which is why I often take it to practice.

Yes, my helix HXFX has a tuner and there are clip on tuners, but the amp is always there, and would be such a simple thing to add.

Plus often the guitarist checks when he forgets what key we are in!

 

Suppose I should ask ashdown. Or maybe drill a hole on the front and put some pulled apart clip on tuner. Just got one that cost a tenner, not too much on the scheme of an amplifier, certainly more use than a VU meter.

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, Sparky Mark said:

Understood, but I will add that new component selection is most definitely the responsibilty and a critical part of the design process. No component without a fully proven reliability record  would make it onto the BOMs of products I am involved with. 

 

I don't think you can level that criticism unless you have the OEM datasheet with the claimed MTBF and that the MTBF was unreasonably short.

 

Unless you can demonstrate that you soak test the LEDs in your own designs for five years before speccing them, I think you are being unreasonable in your criticism.

[la bam]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

Tuners. I have switched to an ABM600 (and I also have a CTM100), but I really miss the tuner on the TC450, which is why I often take it to practice.

Yes, my helix HXFX has a tuner and there are clip on tuners, but the amp is always there, and would be such a simple thing to add.

Plus often the guitarist checks when he forgets what key we are in!

 

Suppose I should ask ashdown. Or maybe drill a hole on the front and put some pulled apart clip on tuner. Just got one that cost a tenner, not too much on the scheme of an amplifier, certainly more use than a VU meter.

 

Ashdown should def add a VU meter tuner to their amps.

[agedhorse]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

 

I think that is a bit harsh. I used to work with an electronics company in the 80s that made CCD pipe inspection cameras. They were the state of the art, however they had quite a high failure rate, and that is because that was the state of the art. When we first started we had to have a gold bonding machine to connect the CCDs to the package. Of course, we could have not used any component without a fully proven reliability record, in which case we would have been sticking a kid with a notebook into a sewer, there weren't other options.

 

Some companies are using componants that have just come out, most of the time everything is fine, but not every company can just sit that far behind the curve.

 

In this case (and I know nothing about it), it doesn't seem unreasonable to select some LEDs to do a job and then find that 3 years later they are breaking down, if you then try to remedy the situation - that is how manufacturing is. Especially when that is not a critical part as in this case. You would not expect them to be failing, and 99.9% of the time you would be right.

 

Good perspective. Nothing is 100% risk free, and without taking at least a tiny bit of risk, everyone would still be playing uprights, acoustic guitar, etc. 

 

I don’t know if you remember when the high brightness, high temperature LEDs came out for  traffic light applications, but they also had higher than acceptable failure rates that took several years to show up. This was in spite of extensive testing and qualification. This too was addressed in the upgraded parts and semi fab process.

 

The average person would probably be surprised at the amount of effort that goes into maintaining reliability metrics in modern products. Unfortunately, no process is 100% perfect nor 100% thorough. To do so would put the cost of new products out of reach.
 

It’s why commercial aircraft are so expensive, yet in spite of a level of qualification, traceability and testing that’s an order of magnitude higher than what’s used for bass amps, mistakes still happen and every aircraft manufacturer in the world has experienced it too. 

[agedhorse]

55 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

I don't think you can level that criticism unless you have the OEM datasheet with the claimed MTBF and that the MTBF was unreasonably short.

 

Unless you can demonstrate that you soak test the LEDs in your own designs for five years before speccing them, I think you are being unreasonable in your criticism.

Agreed, and in the case of the part failures we saw, we would have had to test hundreds for over 3 years because we didn’t really begin to see them for that period of time, and even after 10 years there was only a ~10% failure rate. 
 

Here’s a little data sheet that documents the qualification process and analysis that’s behind the basic process of reliability metrics. This covers known failure modes, at the time this failure mode (production issue) was not understood.

 

https://dammedia.osram.info/media/bin/osram-dam-2496614/AN006_Reliability and lifetime of LEDs.pdf

[Sparky Mark]

2 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

 

I think that is a bit harsh. I used to work with an electronics company in the 80s that made CCD pipe inspection cameras. They were the state of the art, however they had quite a high failure rate, and that is because that was the state of the art. When we first started we had to have a gold bonding machine to connect the CCDs to the package. Of course, we could have not used any component without a fully proven reliability record, in which case we would have been sticking a kid with a notebook into a sewer, there weren't other options.

 

Some companies are using componants that have just come out, most of the time everything is fine, but not every company can just sit that far behind the curve.

 

In this case (and I know nothing about it), it doesn't seem unreasonable to select some LEDs to do a job and then find that 3 years later they are breaking down, if you then try to remedy the situation - that is how manufacturing is. Especially when that is not a critical part as in this case. You would not expect them to be failing, and 99.9% of the time you would be right.

 

I'm happy to go with the concensus and agree it is a bit harsh. Having worked on mission critical electronics during the transition from PTH to multilayer PCBs, thru hole to SMT and lead to lead-free solders/RoHS, I've seen just about everything that can go wrong do so.

Ironically, I wish the blindingly bright blue LED on my compressor pedal would start to degrade; it's like looking into the Sun.

[Woodinblack]

7 minutes ago, Sparky Mark said:

I'm happy to go with the concensus and agree it is a bit harsh. Having worked on mission critical electronics during the transition from PTH to multilayer PCBs, thru hole to SMT and lead to lead-free solders/RoHS, I've seen just about everything that can go wrong do so.

Ironically, I wish the blindingly bright blue LED on my compressor pedal would start to degrade; it's like looking into the Sun.

 

As a separate asside, I hate blue LEDs, and wish they had never come out. I know they are useful, but they are always too blinding. Red / orange / yellow / green, I was happy with htose.

[Gareth Hughes]

18 hours ago, agedhorse said:

Why do you have such negativity towards me, did I do something to you personally to deserve this kind of treatment? Actually, I have seen (and personally experienced) a general negativity and hostility here towards Americans over the past few years on Basschat. It's not welcoming, embracing or particularly friendly. 

To put in my tuppence worth - Andy, I am very thankful that you have continually made yourself available on this site to help with any GenzBenz related questions that I've had over the years. You have helped diagnose problems that needed fixed, pointed me in the right direction to get those things fixed and have saved me from making things worse by messing with things I don't really understand. It saddens me that this some on this forum are less appreciative of your efforts. I'm still a proud owner of two Streamliner heads that will have to prised from my cold, dead hands. Thanks Andy.

[chris7273]

23 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

Bluetooth on an amp (or any other supposedly "professional" piece of musical equipment) is a really bad idea mainly because so far the security on these products has been pretty much zero.

 

Imagine somebody in the audience Bluejacking your set up and then messing about with the settings or streaming some music from their phone through the amp because they didn't like your band?

Sure, that’s why my post was really clear : “for the intended use” and my use is : home practice…