60’s vs 70’s jazz bass pickup spacing / position - SAME BASS !!!

[4000]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

 

In the early days when I was gigging I used to get very wound up about things not sounding right on stage and FoH and TBH a lot of the time because of this I could be rather unpleasant to be around at gigs. In the end I realised that it was not good for me, the band and the other band members or for anyone who had come to see us play.

 

These days so long as I can hear enough to know that I am in time and in tune with the rest of the band and can hear any important musical cues to know where I am in the song, I am perfectly happy. As a result I'm much nicer to be with at gigs and an I put on a much better performance, both musically and visually.

I understand that as I can be the same. But that’s not really what I’m talking about. The whole point of making music, for me, is to do it as much on my terms as possible, because I want to enjoy what I’m doing, I want to have it mean something to me. Obviously it’s nice if other people like what you’re doing, but is that what I do it for? Absolutely not. That goes for the writing, the recording, the playing, the instruments used, etc etc. Obviously there is no absolute, nothing is ever likely to be perfect and more often than not it will be anything but; but ceasing to care, or to strive towards what I’m trying to achieve, is not an option I would be happy considering. I’d sooner give up playing and go back to painting. What’s the point in attempting to do something creative if you’re not doing it on your own terms?

[Nicko]

5 hours ago, 4000 said:

Obviously it’s nice if other people like what you’re doing, but is that what I do it for? Absolutely not.

I'm not sure about that at all.  Whilst I write and record to enjoy myself a compliment on what I've done is some kind of acknowledgement that what I'm doing is worthwhile.

[such]

 

I'm surprised people from the "the audience won't notice, I really doesn't matter" camp even frequent a bass forum. What are we supposed to discuss here, playing more-or-less correct notes more-or-less in tune? Literally everything else is a nuance falling into that category, and I thought we liked to talk about it. 

 

I also disagree with the "when in the mix..." thing. The mix can magnify the difference. Two basses, or two fuzzes, or two chorus pedals, that sound very similar solo, can behave very differently in a mix, as in one can stand out and the other disappear. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by such

[OliverBlackman]

On 13/08/2021 at 14:47, ped said:

The characteristic of the spacing is unmistakeable. The type of J pickup doesn’t influence that character - that same 70s snap is there in basses from £300 to £3000

I have a Squier VMJ and while it’s a terrible bass guitar it does the Marcus Miller slap sound very well, but with 60’s spacing. I believe the pickup placement has more of an effect when players rest their thumb on the pickup. I think the original Sire V7 had 60s positioning and the one I had also had a great MM tone.
 

 

[hubrad]

On 13/08/2021 at 18:12, 4000 said:

I’m now hearing that in the voice of Terry Pratchett’s Death. 😂

OMFG.. do not start that particular ball rolling!

[ped]

21 minutes ago, OliverBlackman said:

I have a Squier VMJ and while it’s a terrible bass guitar it does the Marcus Miller slap sound very well, but with 60’s spacing. I believe the pickup placement has more of an effect when players rest their thumb on the pickup. I think the original Sire V7 had 60s positioning and the one I had also had a great MM tone.
 

 

Let’s hear it! There’s something unmistakeable about 70s spacing slap sound that you can’t do with 60s. It’s like trying to get a Stingray to sound like a Precision 

[4000]

15 hours ago, Nicko said:

I'm not sure about that at all.  Whilst I write and record to enjoy myself a compliment on what I've done is some kind of acknowledgement that what I'm doing is worthwhile.

Well what I said was that’s it’s nice, and it certainly can feel like some sort of affirmation. But personally, as long as I’ve achieved what I set out to achieve (or as close as possible), I really don’t care too much what anyone else thinks. They may have different tastes or standards. Sometimes people love things that I think are terrible (and that includes things I’ve done). It doesn’t stop me thinking they’re terrible! IMO, the only real measure of satisfaction when being creative should be your own; it’s a dangerous thing to start taking everyone else’s opinions into account as no two are likely to be the same.

[OliverBlackman]

40 minutes ago, ped said:

Let’s hear it! There’s something unmistakeable about 70s spacing slap sound that you can’t do with 60s. It’s like trying to get a Stingray to sound like a Precision 

 

Ok, well here's something dead quick and the strings have now been worn out - but I still think it has that nasal snap on the top end that I would usually characterise with Marcus and 70's jazz bass. Obviously bottom end is lacking because its a Squier VMJ with naff PUs. Would be interested to hear any slap examples you think are obviously 70's spacing that differ a lot from this.

 

https://soundcloud.com/user-220370308/squier-vmj-quick-slap-riff/s-pxqpeCyd4Lx

[ped]

15 minutes ago, OliverBlackman said:

 

Ok, well here's something dead quick and the strings have now been worn out - but I still think it has that nasal snap on the top end that I would usually characterise with Marcus and 70's jazz bass. Obviously bottom end is lacking because its a Squier VMJ with naff PUs. Would be interested to hear any slap examples you think are obviously 70's spacing that differ a lot from this.

 

https://soundcloud.com/user-220370308/squier-vmj-quick-slap-riff/s-pxqpeCyd4Lx

Cheers! Yes it does have a nice raspy sound. The difference is in the upper range - slightly more honky on a 60s. The best example I have of a 70s slap sound is in my bass comparison video. That said, for a long time I bought and sold lots of jazz basses looking for that elusive sound - swapped pickups and all sorts. But as soon as I tried the 70s spacing the penny dropped

[Guest]

12 hours ago, such said:

 

I'm surprised people from the "the audience won't notice, I really doesn't matter" camp even frequent a bass forum. What are we supposed to discuss here, playing more-or-less correct notes more-or-less in tune? Literally everything else is a nuance falling into that category, and I thought we liked to talk about it. 

 

I also disagree with the "when in the mix..." thing. The mix can magnify the difference. Two basses, or two fuzzes, or two chorus pedals, that sound very similar solo, can behave very differently in a mix, as in one can stand out and the other disappear. 

Absolutely. What’s the point of a forum, other than to obsess over irrelevant minutiae 😀

[WAYNESWORLD]

To slightly expand this topic I would like to pose the question do we try to just amplify the tone of our chosen bass or do we give our audience the perception of sound we have been influenced by from the players we admire and the sound we have in our heads.

The example I would give is a band playing covers with a multitude of different bass sounds. We all know our role in the band mix. Do we choose to offer the sound we have fixed in our head or the best over all option for the gig.The opportunities for original music give far greater option for personal preferences as the choice of sound is for the band/ creator/musicians  to decide upon. Leading me back to the op.For me pickup position in bass’s of the same shape is just a Personel choice there is no better or best just different.Fenders are the backbone of most players arsenal because they have always been there from the start and are most familiar to players sound engineers etc.As long as we are all happy with our choice that’s as good as it gets.But these discussions are interesting and informative as long as we don’t try to define a point of view as the absolute.All opinions are valid but they are just opinions much like mine and open to criticism.

[OliverBlackman]

50 minutes ago, ped said:

Cheers! Yes it does have a nice raspy sound. The difference is in the upper range - slightly more honky on a 60s. The best example I have of a 70s slap sound is in my bass comparison video. That said, for a long time I bought and sold lots of jazz basses looking for that elusive sound - swapped pickups and all sorts. But as soon as I tried the 70s spacing the penny dropped

I know what you mean about the honky sound but to get around that I have little volume on the neck PU and roll off the tone to about 20%. Maple board and stainless steel strings also help.

[Stub Mandrel]

On the E-string the movement is almost perfectly cancelled out by the change in intonation.

 

Personally, I think it's a mistake to assume different is better.

[Stub Mandrel]

10 hours ago, OliverBlackman said:

I believe the pickup placement has more of an effect when players rest their thumb on the pickup. I think the original Sire V7 had 60s positioning and the one I had also had a great MM tone.

 

I'm sure this is true. I use thumb placement to change my tone, and I can get as much variation between bridge and bottom of the neck as between pickups.

[Doddy]

On 12/08/2021 at 10:55, ped said:

 

Sure, but those of us who have owned a variety of 60s and 70s spaced jazz basses will hear the key difference regardless of the minutiae. I'd say it's a clear as day, and like comparing a P to a J. 

While the pickup position does make a difference, I think the classic mid-late '70s Fender Jazz sound is as much to do with the Ash body/Maple fingerboard combination.

[ped]

46 minutes ago, Doddy said:

While the pickup position does make a difference, I think the classic mid-late '70s Fender Jazz sound is as much to do with the Ash body/Maple fingerboard combination.

I think it might help, but there’s no getting away from the influence of pickup location. 
 

The lightbulb moment for me was when I was playing with the ‘virtual pickups’ on the Roland VB99. Basically you can use it to place pickups anywhere on the bass body and choose type, phase and all sorts. There are some basic models built in (60s and 70s placement included) but upon building my own and manually shifting the rear pickup it was immediately apparent how moving it back further gave that sledgy bite to the sound. Before that I honestly thought it was down to the pickup type. 
 

I sold all my 60s spacers (although I do like them still) in favour of the wider spacing and haven’t looked back. 
 

Since then I’ve watched millions of YT videos and the difference is always apparent (there are quite a few comparison vids out there - sadowsky did one with a back pickup which switches between the two locations which is pretty clear too. 

[Hellzero]

Try a Kramer 450B with the huge distance between the two pickups and you'll understand immediately that the scooped sound (when the two pickups are used together) comes from the inter spacing, easily explainable by the phase cancellation of the low mids due to this ... distance.

[Nicko]

34 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

Try a Kramer 450B with the huge distance between the two pickups and you'll understand immediately that the scooped sound (when the two pickups are used together) comes from the inter spacing, easily explainable by the phase cancellation of the low mids due to this ... distance.

Or simply look at 6 string guitars and see the same thing.  A telecaster in middle position does exactly the same thing and you can't get that sound on a Strat because the pickups are too close.

[Hellzero]

Indeed @Nicko, but as it's BassChat here, I preferred a bass related example. 😉

[Nicko]

1 hour ago, Hellzero said:

Indeed @Nicko, but as it's BassChat here, I preferred a bass related example. 😉

I did wonder if I might become a pariah for mentioning that😀

 

I suspect most of us will be familiar with Telecasters whereas many won't have heard an example of the Kramer.

[BigRedX]

On 15/08/2021 at 00:40, such said:

 

I'm surprised people from the "the audience won't notice, I really doesn't matter" camp even frequent a bass forum. What are we supposed to discuss here, playing more-or-less correct notes more-or-less in tune? Literally everything else is a nuance falling into that category, and I thought we liked to talk about it. 

 

I also disagree with the "when in the mix..." thing. The mix can magnify the difference. Two basses, or two fuzzes, or two chorus pedals, that sound very similar solo, can behave very differently in a mix, as in one can stand out and the other disappear. 

 

While we'd all like to think that sound our own individual instrument is the most important thing, the reality is that it takes a very distant place behind:

 

1. The composition
2. The arrangement
3. The production

of the piece of music we are playing.

 

Maybe it's because I approach most pieces of music as a composer/arranger/producer first and a musician a very distant second. The sounds of each individual instrument are important but only insomuch as how they fit together with the other instruments in the performance. As a musician you should never forget that.

[ped]

56 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

While we'd all like to think that sound our own individual instrument is the most important thing, the reality is that it takes a very distant place behind:

 

1. The composition
2. The arrangement
3. The production

of the piece of music we are playing.

 

Maybe it's because I approach most pieces of music as a composer/arranger/producer first and a musician a very distant second. The sounds of each individual instrument are important but only insomuch as how they fit together with the other instruments in the performance. As a musician you should never forget that.

 

Meanwhile I also enjoy popping a G string at my desk and honing in on every aspect of the sound to a minute degree until its perfect 😆

 

The ONLY consideration in my book is 'do you have fun'

[such]

I'd better not mention how different my acoustic sounds when humidity changes. Or how much time I spend polishing picks for it. 

[Doddy]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

While we'd all like to think that sound our own individual instrument is the most important thing, the reality is that it takes a very distant place behind:

 

1. The composition
2. The arrangement
3. The production

of the piece of music we are playing.

 

Maybe it's because I approach most pieces of music as a composer/arranger/producer first and a musician a very distant second. The sounds of each individual instrument are important but only insomuch as how they fit together with the other instruments in the performance. As a musician you should never forget that.

I don't completely agree.  I agree that the music comes first, but sound and tone is super important for any musician. That's why every great musician, be they a prominant band member or session player/sideman has their own unique sound.

 

[shoulderpet]

I think the bridge pickup on my Ibanez Mezzo bass might be in 60s spacing, granted it's a pj not a jazz bass but still thought it was interesting