Improving Octaver tracking

[Gamble]

Hi all! 

So in short, I'm wondering what I can do to improve the tracking of an octave pedal - any suggestions? 

 

A bit of back story;

I've had trouble getting the octave sound I wanted from my Pod X3 and the tracking hasn't done it for me on either that or my Boss GT6B, or any other multi fx I've got kicking around here.

I've got myself an MXR M288 for starters, the tone is working for me and although it mostly tracks down to A it does still glitch a bit around that mark, it won't sustain there for any time at all and ideally I'd like to be able to get down a little lower if possible - and it doesn't seem to like slapping at all. 

By the way, I'm very open to the idea that there's something I'm doing or not doing that's adding to these issues. 

 

I went for an analogue pedal as I'm also planning on running parallel signal paths and it's been suggested that a digital pedal could have a slight delay that might cause phase issues, but I'm wondering if although I'm trying to be careful, it might be my messy playing upsetting the tracking so perhaps I'd have more success with a polyphonic pedal. 

[Doddy]

Most analogue octave pedals will start to glitch when you go lower than around an A. You might be able to get it a bit lower by doing things like putting it first in your chain, or favouring the neck pickup on your bass. Some people run a compressor before it, but I never do.

Digital pedals will generally track better, but I don't think they sound as good. To me, the glitching on an analogue octave pedal is part of the charm.

[Lfalex v1.1]

All I can add, other than a bit of compression,  would be to make sure your unused strings are well muted. Also try playing in a plucking hand position/ favouring a pickup (as above) that gives more fundamental and less harmonic content- right up by the neck, for example. 

[Manwithvan]

I was just thinking about starting a topic like this, and lo and behold!

I too have the MXR pedal. Low A! I'm happy you get a clean D. All basses seem to produce the same response. I was wondering whether it's possible to split the signal, and use one with the MXR pedal plus a high pass filter to remove the glitches. The other half would remain unaffected.

Anyone tried this?

[Gamble]

1 hour ago, Manwithvan said:

I was just thinking about starting a topic like this, and lo and behold!

I too have the MXR pedal. Low A! I'm happy you get a clean D. All basses seem to produce the same response. I was wondering whether it's possible to split the signal, and use one with the MXR pedal plus a high pass filter to remove the glitches. The other half would remain unaffected.

Anyone tried this?

I have had someone else suggest putting a high pass in front to trim off the subs and give it a clearer signal to work with, I'll have to rummage through my gear and see if I've got something already that I can put in the chain to prove the point. 

[Manwithvan]

That's an idea worth experimenting with. I do have a Roland GP100 guitar processor which I could get to do something approximate. I'll try that. I meant I, not you, am happy to get a clean D. I have found I can get lower by only using girth, and no growl, but the sound is a bit tame.

[SumOne]

I have an MXR M288 and find it can track right down to the low G well, and can even sound fine on the low E but isa bit of a muddy rumble. It's glitchy on the G string though but I think that's my Bass signal (slight fret buzz or harmonics) as it's not glitchy on the same notes on other strings.

 

I think it's down to what others have said, basically it needs to be fed a clean signal, the glitching is it playing harmonics and fret rattle etc. It needs: loud signal, first in chain, clean playing, and I have quite a high action on strings.

[SumOne]

...actually I just tried it and it's a push to say it's fine on the low E, it will only play it without warbling about for about a second.

 

The MXR and Aguilar Octavers are the best sounding ones I've used but playing style does need to be adapted to get the best out of them. I think sub-consciously I've kind of learned to play a bit differently when using them by not playing long sustaining notes below a certain point and to only play clean/solid notes, minimise fret noise and harmonics and anything other than the one note, no slap/pop, the same sort of techniques are needed with synth pedals.

 

I find putting some distortion or envelope filter after the octaver (or synth) helps to disguise the wobbles/glitchyness. 

 

Digital ones will stop the wobbly/glitchyness but I don't think they sound as good, this video is good (7mins onward is about analogue tracking).

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by SumOne

[Al Krow]

I agree with @Doddy that glitching at the low end of the scale is a feature of many octave pedals. Apologies if this is off topic - but if you want excellent low tracking with minimal latency, great value, a pedal which totally nails the OC-2 sound as well as offering a decent octave up, then look no further than the Boss OC-5.

 

The OP mentions polyphonic mode and the tracking is particularly tight with the OC-5 set to poly mode.

[Sibob]

Don't discount a well-setup bass too. An analogue Octaver requires a nice clean note to latch onto, hence why people suggest using neck, pickups etc. Rounder, bigger tone for the pedal to grab. Similarly, a buzzy neck will stop an octaver from having a solid no to track. So if you're running a bridge pickup and a low/buzzy action....you're not going to get decent tracking.

 

Si

[Stingray64]

Theres many ways to get past an A, plucking and pickup being obvious, using a low B string for the notes also helps it find the fundamental. Using digital pedals, 2 octavers in a row or a 2 octave down pedal or using some form of synth/synth effect all also work. But theres no reason it would ever be useful because its just pointlessly low frequencies for a pure sub sound, complete waste of time (and I use A LOT of synth sounds). A on the 10th fret of the B string is as low as I ever would want to go anyway, and when I do I just pluck carefully near the neck. 

 

Good choice on octaver though, its my favourite! If you would like I could explain how to get a more huge sub sound from effects and eq instead.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Stingray64

[Gamble]

Well I've had some success switching basses (gone from passive single coils to soapbars) and using the neck pickup, it's definitely doing a much better job tracking down to G on an open string (drop tuned A string) which was as low as I wanted to go. 

I'm going to have to experiment with the pickups again as I want to use 2 signal paths in parallel and that's going to affect both paths, but I'm certainly feeling more positive about the endeavour than I was! 

Thanks for all the suggestions so far, keep 'em coming if you've got more! 

[Gamble]

On 16/08/2021 at 14:54, Al Krow said:

I agree with @Doddy that glitching at the low end of the scale is a feature of many octave pedals. Apologies if this is off topic - but if you want excellent low tracking with minimal latency, great value, a pedal which totally nails the OC-2 sound as well as offering a decent octave up, then look no further than the Boss OC-5.

 

The OP mentions polyphonic mode and the tracking is particularly tight with the OC-5 set to poly mode.

I might try and get my hands on an OC-5, I was avoiding digital pedals as they could introduce phase issues caused by any signal delay when using them in parallel signal paths, but I figure if I get a used one I should be able to get the same money back if I don't get on with it. 

Thanks for the recommendation! 

[Doddy]

Any delay caused by a digital octaver is going to be so negligible, that it's not even worth worrying about. 

[Al Krow]

9 minutes ago, Doddy said:

Any delay caused by a digital octaver is going to be so negligible, that it's not even worth worrying about. 

 +1^^

 

I think the comb-filter phase effect is only really going to be discernible if you have digital effects in a parallel loop (and even then may not be particularly noticeable).

 

As Doddy states, in a standard series layout, phasing from a digital pedal shouldn't be a concern at all - loads of us are using digital pedals all the time.

[Gamble]

8 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 +1^^

 

I think the comb-filter phase effect is only really going to be discernible if you have digital effects in a parallel loop (and even then may not be particularly noticeable).

 

As Doddy states, in a standard series layout, phasing from a digital pedal shouldn't be a concern at all - loads of us are using digital pedals all the time.

But I am planning on using it in parallel, that's the issue. I'll give it a go and see what happens though, no harm in trying it! 

[Al Krow]

8 hours ago, Gamble said:

But I am planning on using it in parallel, that's the issue. I'll give it a go and see what happens though, no harm in trying it! 

Ah yes, sorry I missed that in your OP.

The MXR M288 has a decent fan base on BC - mine was ridiculously noisy which seems to be a feature of about half of the older units, which meant it didn't last on my board; but if you're in the "good half" then that's at least good news. 

For me if it's trade off between very minor potential comb filtering risk and pretty obvious glitching, I will try to avoid the latter every time. So I personally would still get the excellent OC-5 and put it in parallel in poly mode, if I was starting from scratch. 

But it sounds to me that you're getting there with low-enough tracking on your MXR from your comment above, so I guess see if that works and if it does, you're good to go! 

 

Edited August 18, 2021 by Al Krow

[krispn]

On 15/08/2021 at 11:14, Gamble said:

Hi all! 

So in short, I'm wondering what I can do to improve the tracking of an octave pedal - any suggestions? 

 

A bit of back story;

I've had trouble getting the octave sound I wanted from my Pod X3 and the tracking hasn't done it for me on either that or my Boss GT6B, or any other multi fx I've got kicking around here.

I've got myself an MXR M288 for starters, the tone is working for me and although it mostly tracks down to A it does still glitch a bit around that mark, it won't sustain there for any time at all and ideally I'd like to be able to get down a little lower if possible - and it doesn't seem to like slapping at all. 

By the way, I'm very open to the idea that there's something I'm doing or not doing that's adding to these issues. 

 

I went for an analogue pedal as I'm also planning on running parallel signal paths and it's been suggested that a digital pedal could have a slight delay that might cause phase issues, but I'm wondering if although I'm trying to be careful, it might be my messy playing upsetting the tracking so perhaps I'd have more success with a polyphonic pedal. 

I’ve literally just been messing with octave down stuff using my Red Witch Zeus (basically an OC2 circuit) into the parallel loop on my Basswitch and comparing it with the HX stomp running an octave down on a parallel path too. 
 

Some context…

I’ve been learning a bunch of 80’s tracks for a band I’ve been approached to join so as well

as learning the songs as regular bass parts down in the ‘bass register’ without any effects I’m also coming up with the parts with the octave down engaged but I’m not playing that many, if any notes on the E string below the 5th fret, generally keeping to the 7th fret and above. In fact I’m playing most of the parts starting at ‘D’ on the A string and above with the octave engaged to get better tracking and a bit more of the effect.
 

I’ve tried both finger style and pick I don’t see the use of octave down on an open low E to the A note for the 80’s stuff I’m learning- just lacked the attack and clarity. It sounds more pleasing played up the neck with the  octave engaged but I’d need to wait and see how sounds with the keyboard parts in an actual rehearsal room before deciding if it’s gonna be the octave effect or straight bass tones for those particular songs. 
 

As others have said you may find depending on your goals/songs your doing/effect your after that going much below A or G on the E string is not worth it due to glitches and muddy tone. 
 

 What’s the context? Are you covering songs or just want low sub octave sounds/effect. I’m only really gonna need it on a few tracks but it’s good to have the option but the proof is in the rehearsal room! 

Edited August 18, 2021 by krispn

[Gamble]

On 18/08/2021 at 15:05, krispn said:

I’ve literally just been messing with octave down stuff using my Red Witch Zeus (basically an OC2 circuit) into the parallel loop on my Basswitch and comparing it with the HX stomp running an octave down on a parallel path too. 
 

Some context…

I’ve been learning a bunch of 80’s tracks for a band I’ve been approached to join so as well

as learning the songs as regular bass parts down in the ‘bass register’ without any effects I’m also coming up with the parts with the octave down engaged but I’m not playing that many, if any notes on the E string below the 5th fret, generally keeping to the 7th fret and above. In fact I’m playing most of the parts starting at ‘D’ on the A string and above with the octave engaged to get better tracking and a bit more of the effect.
 

I’ve tried both finger style and pick I don’t see the use of octave down on an open low E to the A note for the 80’s stuff I’m learning- just lacked the attack and clarity. It sounds more pleasing played up the neck with the  octave engaged but I’d need to wait and see how sounds with the keyboard parts in an actual rehearsal room before deciding if it’s gonna be the octave effect or straight bass tones for those particular songs. 
 

As others have said you may find depending on your goals/songs your doing/effect your after that going much below A or G on the E string is not worth it due to glitches and muddy tone. 
 

 What’s the context? Are you covering songs or just want low sub octave sounds/effect. I’m only really gonna need it on a few tracks but it’s good to have the option but the proof is in the rehearsal room! 

I'm aiming for a low octave clean bass sound and a dirty sound at the pitch I'm actually playing running in parallel, kind of low tuned distorted guitar and clean bass all in one - I've had enough of guitarists taking songs I've written, pinching the best riff and binning the rest so I'm just binning guitarists! 

[Al Krow]

5 minutes ago, Gamble said:

I'm aiming for a low octave clean bass sound and a dirty sound at the pitch I'm actually playing running in parallel, kind of low tuned distorted guitar and clean bass all in one - I've had enough of guitarists taking songs I've written, pinching the best riff and binning the rest so I'm just binning guitarists! 

 

The Boss OC-5 has a 'range' setting, that allows you to set a threshold above which the octaver doesn't cut in. I'd actually prefer it the other way around as I don't particularly need an octave down for the very low notes as these are mostly sub-audio anyway and it would at a stroke eliminate any glitching concerns. But given what you're going to be using it for, just wondering whether this feature might let you achieve what you're trying to do, without bothering with the need for a parallel path, to allow you to get the OC-5's great tracking without the risk of parallel-path comb-filtering?

 

The only issue is that OC-5s seem to be pretty much sold out everywhere right now! 

[Gamble]

14 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

The Boss OC-5 has a 'range' setting, that allows you to set a threshold above which the octaver doesn't cut in. I'd actually prefer it the other way around as I don't particularly need an octave down for the very low notes as these are mostly sub-audio anyway and it would at a stroke eliminate any glitching concerns. But given what you're going to be using it for, just wondering whether this feature might let you achieve what you're trying to do, without bothering with the need for a parallel path, to allow you to get the OC-5's great tracking without the risk of parallel-path comb-filtering?

 

The only issue is that OC-5s seem to be pretty much sold out everywhere right now! 

Yeah, that does seem backwards - I'd want it to cut out before it got into flubby glitch territory too. 

I've had half an eye out for and OC-5 as they've already been recommended for the tracking but I hadn't heard about that feature, I'll do a bit of research - cheers for the heads up! 

[garyt]

On 22/08/2021 at 13:56, Gamble said:

Yeah, that does seem backwards - I'd want it to cut out before it got into flubby glitch territory too. 

I've had half an eye out for and OC-5 as they've already been recommended for the tracking but I hadn't heard about that feature, I'll do a bit of research - cheers for the heads up! 

I use the OC-3, and it has the same range control in Poly mode, so would’ve have thought the OC-5 is better (or as good).  I find this really stable and much more reliable in gigging situations.  I think the neck pick-up is probably better at elongating glitches if you have that option.

 

I’m sure there are better options on the market, but the OC-3 works for me, and I couldn’t justify splashing out on an OC-5. 

[Jaybeevee]

Play tone off.. it narrows the signal spread giving the octave pedal a better chance of tracking. An Ian Allison tip..

[Gamble]

Well, in looking up the OC5 I noticed it also has a feature which only applies the octave effect to the lowest note being played at any one time, which sounds quite handy. 

As had been mentioned already they're in short supply at the moment unfortunately, so I've not yet laid my hands on one. 

 

I have however decided to try a Nano POG and my first impression is that the tracking absolutely smashes the MXR and any other Octavers I've tried so far! I'm half convinced I must be doing something different, and in fairness I've been running it through a practice amp rather than headphones so might be playing a little softer, but I did A/B it with the MXR and that's still struggling a bit. The POG is tracking down pretty much to drop D without breaking a sweat, I'm very impressed. 

 

The next test will be to see if there's any phase problems running it in parallel paths, but providing there's not, it even has a dedicated dry only output so it'll even save me using and A/B/Y pedal in the chain!