peteb Posted August 20, 2021 Author Share Posted August 20, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, spongebob said: I read a while back how producer Ted Templeman had wanted the band to dump Dave from the off. He suggested Sammy Hagar.....imagine how history would have changed? Sammy is fine, but DLR is such a part of those first 4. Apparently they were suggestions, but Templeman changed his mind once he started working with Roth in the studio. Pretty typical record company move, find a hot new band, then start mucking about with what made them so great in the first place! Usually they end up being content with sacking the drummer and replacing him with a guy who has been around the scene for a while, but that wasn't really an option seeing as the drummer was Eddie's brother! If they had gone with Hagar when they first got a deal, they would have made a couple of decent albums before Sammy went back to his solo career, Eddie would have ended up playing for Ozzy and Mike would have had a career in someone like the Doobie Brothers or whoever. You probably would never had heard of AVH ever again, but who knows what Roth would have done - I certainly wouldn't bet against him having become a star one way or another... Edited August 20, 2021 by peteb 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sausage Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 20 minutes ago, peteb said: Apparently they were suggestions, but Templeman changed his mind once he started working with Roth in the studio. Pretty typical record company move, find a hot new band, then start mucking about with what made them so great in the first place! Usually they end up being content with sacking the drummer and replacing him with a guy who has been around the scene for a while, but that wasn't really an option seeing as the drummer was Eddie's brother! If they had gone with Hagar when they first got a deal, they would have made a couple of decent albums before Sammy went back to his solo career, Eddie would have ended up playing for Ozzy and Mike would have had a career in someone like the Doobie Brothers or whoever. You probably would never had heard of AVH ever again, but who knows what Roth would have done - I certainly wouldn't bet against him becoming a star one way or another... Hagar is just a cheese-meister. Formulaic rock n roll. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sausage Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Lord Sausage said: Hagar is just a cheese-meister. Formulaic rock n roll. The tensions between Roth and the Van Halens brought the magic. Like when they did those two tracks for the greatest hits in the late 90s. It was instantly better than anything they'd done for years. (This post was supposed to be an edit, not quoting myself) Edited August 20, 2021 by Lord Sausage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted August 20, 2021 Author Share Posted August 20, 2021 1 minute ago, Lord Sausage said: Hagar is just a cheese-meister. Formulaic rock n roll. I disagree - Hagar is a great singer and a very capable songwriter (who has written several big hits for a variety of other artists). I liked Van Hagar, but it lacked the magic and unpredictability of the early Roth led version. DLR was capable of being poetic as well as being the outrageous showman, and his lyrics and general schtick often worked on different levels that you could choose to tap into or not. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sausage Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 42 minutes ago, peteb said: I disagree - Hagar is a great singer and a very capable songwriter (who has written several big hits for a variety of other artists). I liked Van Hagar, but it lacked the magic and unpredictability of the early Roth led version. DLR was capable of being poetic as well as being the outrageous showman, and his lyrics and general schtick often worked on different levels that you could choose to tap into or not. No doubt he can sing, I just found his lyrics and songs, in general, a bit clichéd. Loved 5150 though. The levels thing is what I enjoy about Roth and the delivery. No doubt he had his cheesy moments too but not on early VH. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 Couldn't kiss have just lent him their backing tapes and taught him to lip sync, then they wouldn't have had problems! still, maybe they could get motley crue in instead, or maybe even Docken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pst62 Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 2 hours ago, HazBeen said: I wish Kiss would just say farewell….. Kiss Off so to speak. I wish they'd done that in 1975. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikNik Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 On 20/08/2021 at 17:46, peteb said: By the way, when Eddie died there was a load of VH live stuff from early shows (just before the first album being released) that was put out on YT, etc. Well worth seeking out - brilliant, better than any of the tours when they had hit the bigtime. I was lucky enough to see them supporting Sabbath on the first tour. No show, front of the stage, minimal lights - still one of the best few live performances I have ever seen and far superior to when I saw them later. I heard back then that they blew Sabbaff off the stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted August 23, 2021 Author Share Posted August 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, NikNik said: I heard back then that they blew Sabbaff off the stage. Completely blew them off stage...!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cetera Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 Everyone's missing the point. The reason Roth is off the tour is because it's cheaper without him.... especially as he doesn't actually sell any tickets because he's so bad. Gene is just stirring it up (as he always likes to) because he loves seeing people getting all self righteous at everything he says! lol! You've all fallen for it again. 🤣 Roth never COULD sing for toffee..... and now can't sing at all. He should have gone to Vegas as a lounge act after A L'il Ain't Enough era.... that way he could talk his way through 'My Way' etc. Stanley, however, could sing very well and is now just doing what's necessary to see out the farewell... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jus Lukin Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 (edited) - Edited March 15, 2022 by Jus Lukin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted August 23, 2021 Author Share Posted August 23, 2021 1 hour ago, cetera said: Everyone's missing the point. The reason Roth is off the tour is because it's cheaper without him.... especially as he doesn't actually sell any tickets because he's so bad. Gene is just stirring it up (as he always likes to) because he loves seeing people getting all self righteous at everything he says! lol! You've all fallen for it again. 🤣 Roth never COULD sing for toffee..... and now can't sing at all. He should have gone to Vegas as a lounge act after A L'il Ain't Enough era.... that way he could talk his way through 'My Way' etc. Stanley, however, could sing very well and is now just doing what's necessary to see out the farewell... Now that's fighting talk! Last time I saw a clip of Kiss doing I Was Made For Loving You, Stanley looked dreadful and his voice was terrible, just as bad as Dave. Add to that, the band was poor - not up to scratch at all. Whatever band Roth chucked together to back him would be streets ahead. Kiss really should have given up the ghost about the time that they put the makeup back on, at least in terms of any musical or 'artistic' criteria. To be fair, I think that you might be missing the point of the thread, which was that both of them should have thrown in the towel years ago. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnPatroller Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 On 20/08/2021 at 21:05, Woodinblack said: still, maybe they could get motley crue in instead, or maybe even Docken Dokken. 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nail Soup Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 2 hours ago, DawnPatroller said: On 20/08/2021 at 21:05, Woodinblack said: still, maybe they could get motley crue in instead, or maybe even Docken Dokken. 😉 Mötley Crüe. 😉 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 5 hours ago, Nail Soup said: Mötley Crüe. 😉 Motley crue are bad, but docken are another story. Makes no sense for them to be touring now. And I liked docken. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubit Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 They have a cheek chucking a legend like Diamond Dave off the tour when the last time I saw Kiss they had an effin' painter supporting them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sausage Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 4 minutes ago, ubit said: They have a cheek chucking a legend like Diamond Dave off the tour when the last time I saw Kiss they had an effin' painter supporting them! Same again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cetera Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 That's because they don't need a support to sell tickets. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezbass Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 And don’t then have to pay them. It’s not like KISS are blind to Dollar signs, especially Mr Simmons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubit Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 I think it's a pretty low blow. Kiss certainly do not need the money and people would flock to see them one last time anyway. Dave however most likely does need the money and although he is past his best, he is still a showman and can disguise his vocals with backing tracks. At the end of the day, a rock show is a show. It's not all about ability, it's a show with all the smoke and mirrors that that entails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 1 minute ago, ubit said: I think it's a pretty low blow. Kiss certainly do not need the money and people would flock to see them one last time anyway. Kiss maybe might not need the money, but Kiss is always about the money. 1 minute ago, ubit said: Dave however most likely does need the money and although he is past his best, he is still a showman and can disguise his vocals with backing tracks. At the end of the day, a rock show is a show. It's not all about ability, it's a show with all the smoke and mirrors that that entails. It seems pretty low as their vocals are terrible anyway. But I was wondering why, its not like Daves vocals have got worse since they signed him up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubit Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 I saw Jethro Tull a while back and Iain Anderson clearly has aged and we all know age does not come alone. The performance was cleverly interspersed with video of him singing the higher parts plus backing vocals from his band. no one felt short changed or anything. We all could see a legend playing his part in a show. I have seen video of Diamond Dave singing where his band are singing backing and you can clearly hear that it's Eddie and Michael's voices that are coming through. I thought that was a bit off as I am sure his band can at least have a decent effort at providing backing singing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 2 minutes ago, ubit said: I thought that was a bit off as I am sure his band can at least have a decent effort at providing backing singing. Yes, that would have made more sense if he took his vocal but the band did the other parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDaddy Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 On 24/08/2021 at 12:06, ezbass said: And don’t then have to pay them. It’s not like KISS are blind to Dollar signs, especially Mr Simmons. For support slots of that stature, there is usually a buy-on fee. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibody Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 Isn't he the guy who isn't Sammy Hagar...? (I'll grab my Van Hagar Club coat...) On a side note I cant stand Kiss (sorry Kiss fans) and Gene Simmonds in particular - he grates against my nerves like a titanium cheesegrater. Its all in search of publicity. Nothing more. I remeber seeing Carol Kay trying to teach him how to play bass in a video. It was painful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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