Bass Sound Buried

[BassAdder60]

Had an audition recently with a rock band and I took both my 210 cabs and RM800 head 

 

Nice guys but very loud, really hard hitting drummer and guitarist using a Marshall 412 cab with 100w valve head also loud.

 

Great sound but I found myself absolutely buried and the bass was swamped with the drums and guitar

 

Tried adding more mids, didn’t help, more volume didn’t help either !!

 

It really surprised me that the rig I was using felt so weak in comparison !!

 

Must of been the loudest audition ever for me but the enjoyment of not hearing any finesse in my playing made me think about what I really want or should be playing ??? Something less loud and more easy listening!! 

 

[Lozz196]

With your rig (as mine is similar I know how loud it will go) if it was swamped by a band I’d really consider whether I wanted to join them or not. Pubs will probably only ever put them on once, and proper music venues with FOH will have soundmen that will get very frustrated by them.
 

If you do join I’d say adopt a Cliff Williams type role and play solid without expecting to cut through, and def get some ACS earplugs.

[BassAdder60]

Cheers Lozz .. definitely liked the guys and the music and it took me back to an earlier loud band I gigged with but then I had Ampeg SVT CL head and 610 cab and nothing buried it !!

 

Yep I declined gracefully as I’m now ready to look at function band setups with a rocky vibe with pop and r&b thrown in. Time to learn new songs me thinks and save my ears !! 

[Maude]

In our rehearsal room the lead guitarist has an Ashdown 2x10 amp and a Marshall 4x12 half stack. 

Every so often I'll really be struggling to hear myself clearly. After upping my mids a bit to cut through, then usually upping the volume, to no avail, I'll ask what amp are you using? Yep, the Marshall. 

It's not the volume with it, it's the frequencies it's taking up. It seems to just cancel out my bass, which I don't have as a thundering bottom end, more clean and punchy. 

 

I bet if he took some bass out of his EQ you'd suddenly be able to hear yourself without upping the volume. 

[Downunderwonder]

Were your 210 cabs together on the floor / stacked flat:

O O

O O

 

or stacked tall:

O

O

O

O?????

 

One time I sat in on  a pub gig with some guys that usually had the drummer's girlfriend on bass. She was unavailable but her rig was in the van and I happened to have a bass with me.

 

Halfway through the gig and I must have turned up mids two or three times as well as some volume. Still can't hardly hear myself and it's LOUD.

 

I go out front and I am way way louder than needed but I can hear myself. Thanks for nuttin' 410 shishkebab dispersion.

[Doctor J]

I think the best way to set up amps is to stand directly across the room from them, rather than right in front of them. We tend to stand so close to them and miss most of the projection from the cab. If the guitarist is getting 100W of Marshall aimed right at his skull, he might turn down a bit. Similarly, if your head is above your cab, rather than in front of it, you're depending on the (usually not acoustically treated) room to reflect the sound back to you which isn't guaranteed to happen, then complain we're not loud enough despite the amp glowing hot. Always start a rehearsal by having the bass and drums play together, set the level of bass to work with the drums, then bring enough guitar in for it to all work together, but always be facing what you want to hear instead of standing right beside it with your ears several feet above it.

[BassAdder60]

I had both my Ashdown cabs stacked on top of each other ( they have diagonal spaced cones per cab ) 

[Elfrasho]

Too loud then! 

[BassAdder60]

13 minutes ago, Elfrasho said:

Too loud then! 

Definitely too loud but guitar cab too bassy and with the loud kick drum I was buried 

Edited August 29, 2021 by BassAdder27

[steve-bbb]

is the RM800 a class D ?

[casapete]

Anyone who uses a 100 watt Marshall guitar valve head turned up loud for rehearsals is never going to ‘get it’, so think you’ve made the right call. You would always be fighting them for sonic space and your hearing would possibly be at risk too. With all the great number of small valve combos available these days, there’s just no excuse. 

[DiMarco]

Holdon. I practice with a TC RH750 and two Trace Elliot 2x8 cabs.

Our guitarists use a 100w Marshall halfstack and a Dual Rectifier with 6x12" stack.

 

I can actually go way too loud with the 4x8 vertical stack. Guitarists turned down their volume because the vocals were getting swamped too much.

We now practice without earplugs at a social volume level and can hear our vocals much better. Bass guitar was never any problem.

 

Ask the guys to be sensible. Your stack should be more than enough in that situation.

 

[BassAdder60]

40 minutes ago, steve-bbb said:

is the RM800 a class D ?

Yes it is 

[steve-bbb]

4 minutes ago, BassAdder27 said:

Yes it is 

try a class A

[Newfoundfreedom]

Have you tried turning up the mids?

Yes. 

 

Have you tried turning up the volume?

Yes. 

 

Have you tried turning up with a lump hammer and smashing up the guitarists ridiculously loud cab? 

 

 

 

 

 

[casapete]

I was in a band once with someone who insisted that his Marshall 100 head needed to be at a certain level to get ‘his sound’. Actually he was right - master volumes on Marshall heads have never (IMHO) been that successful in achieving this, as you really need to get the power amp valves working. Just winding up the preamp(s) is not enough for getting ‘that’ sound, which is why the very sensible move to smaller valve amps/combos has enabled this to happen but at more sensible levels. 100 watts of full on Marshall is too much for many gigs let alone a rehearsal room. I have an original Marshall 1974 model 18 watt combo which is perfect for rock and blues stuff - when fully opened up it is one of the best guitars sounds I’ve encountered, as well as loud enough to be used unmiked.

Edited August 29, 2021 by casapete
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[Downunderwonder]

1 hour ago, DiMarco said:

Holdon. I practice with a TC RH750 and two Trace Elliot 2x8 cabs.

Our guitarists use a 100w Marshall halfstack and a Dual Rectifier with 6x12" stack.

 

I can actually go way too loud with the 4x8 vertical stack. Guitarists turned down their volume because the vocals were getting swamped too much.

We now practice without earplugs at a social volume level and can hear our vocals much better. Bass guitar was never any problem.

 

Ask the guys to be sensible. Your stack should be more than enough in that situation.

 

Rare birds your guitarists!

[Dad3353]

'The Sound' (any sound...) is easy enough to get from a decent pre-amp, instead of from 'cooking' the output bottles, and is then available at any volume, including DI or recording with no amp at all. Our Eldest gets 'The Sound' from a Mesa Tri-axis and a G-Force, which drive a Mesa Simul_Class 2:90 valve amp. It's true that the 2 x 90 valve watts can take paint from the neighbours wall (and they're nearly a kilometre away...), but he gets the same juicy valve sound at any level at all. He still plays too loud, of course, but that's not the point. One doesn't need to drive the bottles to get The Sound, and any guitarist that says that's the only way is out of touch by half a century or so and/or delusional. Yes, the Tri-Axis is expensive (or was, at the time...), and the G-Force has been superseded, but their modern equivalents are more than capable of producing The Sound, at any chosen volume, so there's no real excuse. 

[Japhet]

Guitars can make a difference too. I always find that a loud Les Paul has a huge, fat sound that hogs a load of frequencies. The only success I've had with them is with guitarists that are prepared to stay out of my frequencies, but they are few and far between.

[41Hz]

I find those Marshall 412 guitar cabs can have some weird dispersion effects and sometimes moving a few feet can help.

 

Other thing you could do is get a pair of decent over ear headphones - this will quieten things down a bit and protect your ears - you can get one of those cheap behringer p2 headphone amps and take the DI from your RM800 so you can hear your bass. I really struggle to play if I can’t hear myself properly.

Edited August 29, 2021 by 41Hz

[Lozz196]

A guitarist with a Les Paul & a Marshall 100 watt amp + 412, and with a bedroom sound will most likely swamp anything/everything. In my last band I was very lucky that although our guitarist had all of that gear he knew where the bass, volume and reverb controls on his Marshall were. I’ve not been so fortunate in the past.

[BassAdder60]

54 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

A guitarist with a Les Paul & a Marshall 100 watt amp + 412, and with a bedroom sound will most likely swamp anything/everything. In my last band I was very lucky that although our guitarist had all of that gear he knew where the bass, volume and reverb controls on his Marshall were. I’ve not been so fortunate in the past.

This is very true … in this instance he was running a heavily processed multi fx in front of his amp and that didn’t help matters in EQ terms ..  

[Dad3353]

10 minutes ago, BassAdder27 said:

... running a heavily processed multi fx in front of his amp...

 

In that case he most definitely does not need the amp to be cranked..! 

[BassAdder60]

29 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

In that case he most definitely does not need the amp to be cranked..! 

I agree .. anyway lesson learnt play with a quieter band me thinks 

[Downunderwonder]

3 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

'The Sound' (any sound...) is easy enough to get from a decent pre-amp, instead of from 'cooking' the output bottles, and is then available at any volume, including DI or recording with no amp at all. Our Eldest gets 'The Sound' from a Mesa Tri-axis and a G-Force, which drive a Mesa Simul_Class 2:90 valve amp. It's true that the 2 x 90 valve watts can take paint from the neighbours wall (and they're nearly a kilometre away...), but he gets the same juicy valve sound at any level at all. He still plays too loud, of course, but that's not the point. One doesn't need to drive the bottles to get The Sound, and any guitarist that says that's the only way is out of touch by half a century or so and/or delusional. Yes, the Tri-Axis is expensive (or was, at the time...), and the G-Force has been superseded, but their modern equivalents are more than capable of producing The Sound, at any chosen volume, so there's no real excuse. 

I don't know that the Feel is quite there yet