Large Bass Cabs

[Lfalex v1.1]

I'd contend that the single greatest contributor to poor bass sound is down to the room it's being used in and how they're set up

8 foot ceilings cause a boost ~50hz.

We're all familiar with that "I can't hear it, but the audience can" and "it's firing past my ankles" feeling.

That's why I favour a pre-amp for "my sound" which feeds the desk, and then feeds the amp proper which I endeavour to EQ to compensate for the environment it's in so I can at least hear it.

 

Other alternatives; IEMs or a wedge for on stage sound, using a cab for backline only.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

An eight foot ceiling won't provide a significant boost, if anything it will cause a null. This calculates floor and ceiling bounce:

https://mehlau.net/audio/floorbounce/

 

If you do a few calcs you'll see that the closer you are to the speaker the lower the cancellation frequencies. That's why you can't hear your lows on a small stage. Extend that distance to where the audience is and the reason why it's louder out there becomes clear. I always do my sound check from the dance floor, adjusting my volume and EQ for how it sounds there. Whatever that results in on stage I live with.

 

[dave_bass5]

Just now, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

I always do my sound check from the dance floor, adjusting my volume and EQ for how it sounds there. Whatever that results in on stage I live with.

 

Same here. This is one of the big reasons I’ve always used wireless, as the rooms we have played in can be very hard to judge on stage, or even on the dance floor in front of it. I like to wander around the room and make sure I’m not too boomy or jumping out of the mix. 
Of course without the guitarist doing this, a d mucking about all gig with his rig, it’s sometimes a waste of time. 

 

 

[Lozz196]

The best way, Bill.  I recall some years ago getting a great onstage sound at soundcheck, just the right balance of everything, going out front to hear the whole band and being dismayed to hear a wall of sludge/boom. So went back, adjusted & got a sound that imo was too middy/not enough lows, out front where the audience would be it was perfect. So lived with the onstage sound, and from them on used that method,

[dave_bass5]

When i had my old 1212L i felt it could produce two sounds. The onstage, pokey and clear, and then off stage full and punchy. I always used to EQ for the room, but it never seemed to make the close up sound bad. I cant say that for any other cab ive owned. Then again, its a pretty unique cab, and does have a driver aimed at your head. 

[warwickhunt]

14 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

When i had my old 1212L i felt it could produce two sounds. The onstage, pokey and clear, and then off stage full and punchy. I always used to EQ for the room, but it never seemed to make the close up sound bad. I cant say that for any other cab ive owned. Then again, its a pretty unique cab, and does have a driver aimed at your head. 

 

I trialled a Schroeder cab a few years back and I was frankly 'puzzled' as to how I could move around a (smallish) room and hear myself adequately from way more positions than some cabs I've used (even vertically stacked/aligned)... not sure why I didn't go with one of those cabs! 

 

<edit>  Reading my comment I'd forgotten that the Schroeder cabs seemed to have a mid biased bump which would account for part of it.

Edited September 4, 2021 by warwickhunt

[Lozz196]

I found the same thing with the Schroeder cabs that I had as well.

[dave_bass5]

20 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

I found the same thing with the Schroeder cabs that I had as well.

I must admit i found the mids a bit fatiguing on longer gigs, but it never let me down. Even the band used to comment on how well they could hear me across the stage, without me being loud. 

[Downunderwonder]

6 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Definitions vary from person to person, but what most consider to be boom is a response peak in the midbass, from 80-120Hz. The usual cause of boom is an enclosure that's too small for the driver, especially when it's sealed.

Or a 10ft hard ceiling hard floor combo.

Or an acoustic guitar on stage.

Best not kick it off with a boomy cab for starters.

[DGBass]

To respond to the op's original post and based on my experience of trying smaller lightweight modern cab designs I have to say I've not been persuaded to give up my last large bass cab yet for something promising big low end performance from a small lightweight(and usually expensive) package. At present, the only cab at my disposal that I can depend on providing real ‘low end depth’ without any drama is a big old Musicman RH115 cab fitted with a Faital Pro 15-PR400. Of course its fairly large and not the easiest to transport. One other point the Op mentions is '4 ohm' cabs. This is my preference nowadays as using a single 4 ohm cab also gives me the benefit of the amps full headroom without the hassle of two cabs. My single bigger 4 ohm cab is getting more use than my smaller lightweight cabs because it can outperform them easily if I need to boost below 180Hz( based on use with a TE GP12). I still feel at present with cabs that the laws of physics apply if you like your bass down(very)low. All that being said, I did try a Markbass Traveller 122 recently (800watt 4 ohm 2x12 cab) and I was very impressed with the ‘low end depth’ it could manage and it was reasonably lightweight. It does however fall into the ‘usually expensive’ lightweight option and I’ll need a few well paid gigs before I consider one and think about selling on my large Musicman bass cab.

[chris_b]

12 hours ago, dangoose said:

. . . . my experience of trying smaller lightweight modern cab designs I have to say I've not been persuaded to give up my last large bass cab yet for something promising big low end performance from a small lightweight(and usually expensive) package. At present, the only cab at my disposal that I can depend on providing real ‘low end depth’ without any drama is a big old Musicman RH115 cab fitted with a Faital Pro 15-PR400.

 

I gigged a Musicman HD150 and HD212EV in the 80's. It weighed more than a small planet and, in usual Leo Fender style, had only one strap handle on the top. A 90lb one handed lift? Just poor design. Sounded good but my Dynacord 115 EV combo sounded better.

 

The laws of physics do apply, that's why some modern cabs sound so good. Of course most modern cabs will be "expensive" when compared to a 40 years old cab. But if you are interested in saving your back, the extra cost is well worth it. 

Edited September 6, 2021 by chris_b

[Muzz]

My Walkabout doesn't have an HPF (unlike the Magellan I had with/before it), the best thing I discovered was to turn the end two dials of the parametric right down; no mud, no boom...they've never moved from there...

 

The Schroeder 1515L I had shouldn't really have worked as a bass cab, but in a live band scenario, it definitely did...

 

I was at music festival all over Bury town centre last Monday, and watching the various bands (there were dozens and dozens) humping big old cabs in and out of pubs made me very grateful I'd moved on...on the other hand, I'm playing in Glasgow next month, and there's a supplied SVT backline, and I'm looking forward to playing through one again...knowing I don't have to shift the thing... 😃

 

We're playing as a trio in a few smaller venues at the moment, and my little Rumble 100 (admittedly with a better Eminence 12 in it) onstage with all the bass cut and DI'd to the PA is a great setup; no booming thunderous bass onstage, the PA does the heavy lifting...

Edited September 6, 2021 by Muzz

[Muzz]

Just now, Muzz said:

My Walkabout doesn't have an HPF (unlike the Magellan I had with/before it), the best thing I discovered was to turn the left hand end two dials of the parametric right down; no mud, no boom...they've never moved from there...

 

The Schroeder 1515L I had shouldn't really have worked as a bass cab, but in a live band scenario, it definitely did...

 

I was at music festival all over Bury town centre last Monday, and watching the various bands (there were dozens and dozens) humping big old cabs in and out of pubs made me very grateful I'd moved on...on the other hand, I'm playing in Glasgow next month, and there's a supplied SVT backline, and I'm looking forward to playing through one again...knowing I don't have to shift the thing... 😃

 

[Deepfat]

Interesting thread. I've been mulling over getting rid of my old Ashdown ABM 410T and 210T as I never use the 410 as it is just too damn heavy and taking up space. I normally just use the 210 but sometimes with my Barefaced One10 (practice cab) to drop to 4Ohms and drive amp better. We play pubs and clubs so nothing enormous. Thinking of either a Barefaced Twin or GR AT212 as a replacement. Light, 4Ohm and possibly louder. Thoughts?

[chris_b]

37 minutes ago, Deepfat said:

Interesting thread. I've been mulling over getting rid of my old Ashdown ABM 410T and 210T as I never use the 410 as it is just too damn heavy and taking up space. I normally just use the 210 but sometimes with my Barefaced One10 (practice cab) to drop to 4Ohms and drive amp better. We play pubs and clubs so nothing enormous. Thinking of either a Barefaced Twin or GR AT212 as a replacement. Light, 4Ohm and possibly louder. Thoughts?

 

The difference in running an amp at 8 ohms and at 4 ohms is marginal. A better cab will get you more volume than worrying about ohms.

 

As you are already a BF owner, if you are running a 210 and want to upgrade, I'd suggest a BF Super Compact.

 

Since buggering up my back again I've been using 1 SC and my 700 watt amp. So that's 350 watts into a 112 and it's loud enough to match a very noisy covers band, 2 guitars, keys and drums.

[Merton]

15 minutes ago, chris_b said:

 

The difference in running an amp at 8 ohms and at 4 ohms is marginal. A better cab will get you more volume than worrying about ohms.

 

As you are already a BF owner, if you are running a 210 and want to upgrade, I'd suggest a BF Super Compact.

 

Since buggering up my back again I've been using 1 SC and my 700 watt amp. So that's 350 watts into a 112 and it's loud enough to match a very noisy covers band, 2 guitars, keys and drums.

I agree with Chris. Or, get a second One10 and make a mini rig of doom 😎

[Lozz196]

Or even a BF210 would be pretty decent. Plus if the ABM210 is enough for the gigs then the BF210 would be, and you could add in the BF110 if needed (if the ohms thing works of course).
 

What I would say is don’t expect it to sound anywhere near as full as the ABM410 & 210 though, it will no doubt be as loud but there won’t be that depth - I say that as someone who’s had both an ABM410 & 210 stack and a BF410 & 210 stack. The BF410 on its own was behind the paired ABM cabs in depth, though not by much, so a 210/110 or 210 on its own won’t compete in that aspect.

[DGBass]

On 10/09/2021 at 17:42, Deepfat said:

Interesting thread. I've been mulling over getting rid of my old Ashdown ABM 410T and 210T as I never use the 410 as it is just too damn heavy and taking up space. I normally just use the 210 but sometimes with my Barefaced One10 (practice cab) to drop to 4Ohms and drive amp better. We play pubs and clubs so nothing enormous. Thinking of either a Barefaced Twin or GR AT212 as a replacement. Light, 4Ohm and possibly louder. Thoughts?

I've now gone full 4 ohm cab mode since selling on all my 8 ohm cabs. It's just my experience but running the remaining amps I have access to at 4 ohms does seem to make a difference as to how they perform. Maybe its having the full headroom of the amp available that makes that difference but they feel more responsive in use at a gig. I recently got a hold of a very early MAG210T compact slim( not the deep version) cab as a smaller more portable option to use instead of my bigger Musicman. It's an old UK made one, front ported and pre-dates Ashdown's usual year/date serial numbers so its at least 20 years old. It was originally a 150 watt 8 ohm cab but as I got the cab for buttons due to a faulty speaker, I replaced both drivers with Jensen BP150's and its now a MAG210T-300 4 ohm cab. I gigged it last week and it sounded immense with a TE AH200-GP12 on top which is no slouch in the watts department. It's not that heavy either and very portable. I don't want to stir controversy or fall out with the Rootmaster owners club folks (or the BF fans) but a 20 year old front ported MAG210T compact slim cab with a modern 300 watt 4 ohm setup completely smoked the lightweight RM210T cab I recently sold on by a large margin in low end performance(as a single cab option). It also sounded better to me than the pair of BF 1x10's I used to own. Yes its not as light (18kg as opposed to 14kg for the RM) but there is definitely life in older bigger cabs if you don't want to(or can't afford to) shell out on the expensive boutique options. It's also worth choosing your drivers carefully if you do feel like updating. I'd say don't get rid of your 210T, just upgrade it to a 4 ohm cab, bounce the 410 into the classified ads to fund the new speakers 😁 and save yourself a packet. Of course you need to like the sound of your 210T before considering such a change...    

[bassman7755]

On 02/09/2021 at 22:54, Downunderwonder said:

If you're seeing large excursion you need a highpass filter. 

 

If you can "see" any excursion at all you need a high pass filter as your eyes can only see something move up to about 25hz above which it should just be a blur, so if you can see it then by definition you cant hear it and its just wasted energy and speaker compliance.

 

RE the OPs point - using a well setup high pass filter will allow you have a lot more usable bass volume and depth from any given speaker to the point where you might not actually need to preplace them. 

 

Also worth noting that in cab design size matters but weight does not  - all other things being equal a bigger cab can go lower and louder (more efficient) than a smaller one but thats purely a function of its size NOT its weight. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by bassman7755

[DGBass]

On 18/09/2021 at 15:44, bassman7755 said:

Also worth noting that in cab design size matters but weight does not  - all other things being equal a bigger cab can go lower and louder (more efficient) than a smaller one but thats purely a function of its size NOT its weight. 

Agree whole heartedly. The thing with most lightweight cabs in my limited experience of them is that the designers go for smaller as well as lighter and 8 ohm spec. Small lightweight 4 ohm cabs won't handle a modern amp output as well as two 8 ohm cabs would unless the 4 ohm design was substantially bigger. The lightweight cabs I've owned weren't bad sounding but they were also smaller to keep the weight down. As examples the RM Ashdown sealed cabs I owned sounded great, and their white line drivers were very toneful, especially the RM210T.  Kick some serious power through them and it almost seemed like the drivers were going to pop right out of the cabs at well within their power rating. The BF cabs I owned also didn't sound bad, just being so small even a a pair of them couldn't produce the low end I like. They seemed to be voiced for a more modern low mid sound which I didn't like at the end of the day.  Physically bigger cabs will weigh more obviously no matter if their made of particle board or quality birch ply. Saying that, I do think a cab made of 3/4 inch whatever is more solid than a cab made of 8mm ply. If someone made an 800 watt 4 ohm 2x15 out of 8mm ply, I suspect it would need some serious internal bracing to keep it in check. And that would make it less lightweight. Thats why I mentioned the 20 year old MAG210T in comparison with RM compact sealed cabs as an example. The ported MAG with modern drivers( and 4 ohm capability) is heavier but not by that much. For me, and because its ported it outperforms a smaller lightweight sealed RM210T in low end performance which is my thing. And crucially, one bigger older and heavier MAG 4 ohm 2x10 that doesn't weigh a great deal more has replaced my two lightweight thin wall compact sealed cabs that weighed more together.  And all at a fraction of the cost of buying lighter modern stuff.  I predict as cab offerings evolve, more manufacturers will offer single slightly larger 4 ohm cab solutions that may be a little heavier and physically larger but ultimately will suit players who no longer want to hump multiple 8 ohm cabs around, even if they are lightweight😁 I think larger cabs are here to stay and folks could do worse than re-inventing existing cabs meantime with newer modern drivers to get a good single cab solution.  

 

[Stub Mandrel]

On 03/09/2021 at 23:16, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

That's because the speakers of that era, both the ones we played through and the ones the recordings were listened to on, weren't capable of going low.

 

But you could go to Tandy and buy a box with a 15" woofer in it  'for bass you can really feel' (and almost certainly, a tweeter with the dome punched in.) 🙂

 

I've got a pair of Phillips 'w00x' speakers with a tuned resonant passive radiator. For their size (about the same as my Kef Coda 7s) they have remarkable bass handling capability, although I guess they are less efficient than typical bass cabs.

 

Is there any strong reason why passive radiators aren't used for bass cabs?

 

[Stub Mandrel]

On 10/09/2021 at 17:42, Deepfat said:

GR AT212 as a replacement. Light, 4Ohm and possibly louder. Thoughts

 

Light, 4 ohm and very loud.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

56 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Is there any strong reason why passive radiators aren't used for bass cabs?

 

A passive radiator costs more than a port. 🙄

 

I recall that someone made one, but I don't recall who. I also recall that they didn't call it a passive radiator, they used a different term that implied it was something new and unique, but it was a PR.

[Downunderwonder]

1 hour ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Is there any strong reason why passive radiators aren't used for bass cabs?

They weigh more than the extra ply taken to build a bigger ported box?

 

Mesa did one in a combo called the Walkabout Scout.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

That's not the one I recall. Mesa does call it a passive radiator, the one I can't remember didn't. In general PRs are smaller than ported cabs for the same result, because a PR takes up less space than a port.