Fingerstyle Funk

[AM1]

Looking for any recommendations for tuition guides to funk techniques...like scales/rhythm stuff.

I mean for stuff like Parliament/Funkadelic, Stevie Wonder, James Brown and Sly & The Family Stone, but especially ToP/Francis Rocco Prestia.

I absolutely love this stuff, I'm just nowhere near up to playing it, but hey nothing wrong with having goals!

Edited April 1, 2009 by AM1

[The Funk]

If you like Rocco you should just stack up on Rocco's videos. I don't like Tower Of Power very much - but he's a good bass player!

Funk's very simple.

Rhythmically, all you need to know is that:
1. there's a big accent on the 1 and a smaller pair of accents on the 2 and 4. You can play wherever you want in there - pick your spot and make it count;
2. there are two main types of feel, straight and swing-funk - the best example of swing-funk is [i]Superstition[/i].

In terms of scales, Dorian and Mixolydian modes because there are a lot of II-V chords typically. If you don't know any modes, then minor and major blues scales and licks are just fine! The only thing you'd be missing out on really is the major 6th-minor 7th thing you get. Obviously, if you get into jazzier funk tunes like [i]Streetlife[/i], you'd have to have enough knowledge to play through more tricky changes.

Edited April 1, 2009 by The Funk

[The Funk]

[quote name='AM1' post='451105' date='Apr 1 2009, 05:07 AM']I absolutely love this stuff, [b]I'm just nowhere near up to playing it[/b], but hey nothing wrong with having goals![/quote]

I think somewhere along the line someone has started a lie that funk is slightly advanced and requires some kind of pre-existing technical expertise.

I think that's total bollocks. If I had any students, I'd see nothing wrong with getting them to learn songs like [i]Papa Was A Rollin' Stone[/i], [i]If You Want Me To Stay[/i] or [i]Tear The Roof Off[/i] at an early stage. There's nothing to it!

[AM1]

[quote name='The Funk' post='451107' date='Apr 1 2009, 05:22 AM']If you like Rocco you should just stack up on Rocco's videos. I don't like Tower Of Power very much - but he's a good bass player!

Funk's very simple.

Rhythmically, all you need to know is that:
1. there's a big accent on the 1 and a smaller pair of accents on the 2 and 4. You can play wherever you want in there - pick your spot and make it count;
2. there are two main types of feel, straight and swing-funk - the best example of swing-funk is [i]Superstition[/i].

In terms of scales, Dorian and Mixolydian modes because there are a lot of II-V chords typically. If you don't know any modes, then minor and major blues scales and licks are just fine! The only thing you'd be missing out on really is the major 6th-minor 7th thing you get.[/quote]

Heya!

Thanks for the advice.

I have managed to craft up a few funky basslines but it was more from what I can hear in my head, and only now can release from my fingers, not by any scientific means! That's the problem for me going onto another instrument, I can hear what I want to play, I just can't make my fingers do it!

Scales and modes - I am revisiting a lot of this stuff but it's kind of frustrating doing it off a laptop while also trying to play, I need to find a book which covers all of that, plus arpeggios and licks.

But yeah - ToP is an acquired taste, not like Parliament, where most people "feel" the funk straight away.

It was a lot harder to get the funky "feel" on the jazz, have I mentioned how much I LOVE the FrankenPrecision.

There are some seriously slinky sounds lurking in this thing! It blows the jazz away on tone!

[AM1]

[quote name='The Funk' post='451108' date='Apr 1 2009, 05:29 AM']I think somewhere along the line someone has started a lie that funk is slightly advanced and requires some kind of pre-existing technical expertise.

I think that's total bollocks. If I had any students, I'd see nothing wrong with getting them to learn songs like [i]Papa Was A Rollin' Stone[/i], [i]If You Want Me To Stay[/i] or [i]Tear The Roof Off[/i] at an early stage. There's nothing to it![/quote]

It is more advanced for a beginner, i.e. it is easier to play 8th root note punk bass but the funk stuff is rhythmically a bit more difficult. It's the "feel" - I don't think you can artificially create it, you either feel it or you don't.

I think it was more the techniques such as percussive stuff/muting that makes it look technically difficult.

[The Funk]

[quote name='AM1' post='451109' date='Apr 1 2009, 05:30 AM']I have managed to craft up a few funky basslines but it was more from what I can hear in my head, and only now can release from my fingers, not by any scientific means! That's the problem for me going onto another instrument, I can hear what I want to play, I just can't make my fingers do it![/quote]

The "right" way to come up with lines is by playing what you hear in your head. The science is there for if you get stuck.

If you can hear what you want to play, just force yourself to sit there with your bass and work out exactly what the right notes are. Once you know that, then you can work out the best fingerings for it.

[The Funk]

[quote name='AM1' post='451110' date='Apr 1 2009, 05:35 AM']It is more advanced for a beginner, i.e. it is easier to play 8th root note punk bass but the funk stuff is rhythmically a bit more difficult. It's the "feel" - I don't think you can artificially create it, you either feel it or you don't.

I think it was more the techniques such as percussive stuff/muting that makes it look technically difficult.[/quote]

I get what you're saying but on those three tunes I mentioned there are no advanced techniques. I think the way you get a feel for funk tunes is by listening to them and playing them a lot. It takes a while to filter in.

[lowdown]

Feeling natural about playing [b]syncopation.[/b] is a good start.
Its Not always about what scales or modes you use.

If you play a phrase just using octaves, ghost notes, and rests, [ say in G for ex ]
And its well syncopated, or accented at other points other than just one, done right can be very Funky.

Rocco from TOP does a lot of that. Even when he is using fast 16th patterns there
is plenty of syncopation and accents.


Garry

[leschirons]

As the funk has stated. The Rocco vids are a great help. He puts a lot of emphasis on 16th note practice so I suppose getting that nice and smooth and dropping in your accents is a good way to start.

[risingson]

Anthony Jackson's stuff with Chaka Khan!

[alexclaber]

Regarding syncopation and note choices, there are really no hard and fast rules in funk. Likewise tonal choices - a huge range of techniques and resulting tones work with funk. Spend enough time listening to the greats and it should all come fairly naturally.

I came to funk from rock and metal via the Chilis. Blood Sugar Sex Magik is the only album I've ever learnt start to finish and I still think it's a great one to enter funk through - the punk/rock crossover makes it that much more accessible as do the more song oriented arrangements.

I haven't honestly learnt much funk by rote since then - some Larry Graham, some Rocco, some Jaco, but they're more for getting technique sorted slapwise or fast 16th note funk. I've listened to plenty though and hand me any bass and drop me in any funk band and I will lay it down like a mother. I will say though that you're best steering clear of Rocco's style for a long time - it is seriously hard to get right. Bizarrely Jaco's 16th note lines are much easier to nail because they are far less reliant on the left hand muting. Nowadays I do play those heavily muted thuddy 16th grooves but it's taken years get that vibe happening - most bassists end up going all growly bridge pickupy and trebly when doing 16th note funk but sounds so cheesy in comparison.

All about the FEEL dog.

Alex

[AM1]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='451394' date='Apr 1 2009, 12:42 PM']Regarding syncopation and note choices, there are really no hard and fast rules in funk. Likewise tonal choices - a huge range of techniques and resulting tones work with funk. Spend enough time listening to the greats and it should all come fairly naturally.

I came to funk from rock and metal via the Chilis. Blood Sugar Sex Magik is the only album I've ever learnt start to finish and I still think it's a great one to enter funk through - the punk/rock crossover makes it that much more accessible as do the more song oriented arrangements.

I haven't honestly learnt much funk by rote since then - some Larry Graham, some Rocco, some Jaco, but they're more for getting technique sorted slapwise or fast 16th note funk. I've listened to plenty though and hand me any bass and drop me in any funk band and I will lay it down like a mother. I will say though that you're best steering clear of Rocco's style for a long time - it is seriously hard to get right. Bizarrely Jaco's 16th note lines are much easier to nail because they are far less reliant on the left hand muting. Nowadays I do play those heavily muted thuddy 16th grooves but it's taken years get that vibe happening - most bassists end up going all growly bridge pickupy and trebly when doing 16th note funk but sounds so cheesy in comparison.

All about the FEEL dog.

Alex[/quote]

Thanks for the answers.

I love RHCP as well!

The thing I find most difficult on the right hand is playing with my thumb on the pickup and crossing strings without other strings ringing and also knowing which fingers to use on which strings. The floating thumb type technique is almost instinctive but I could probably get more speed eventually if I anchored my thumb.

I need some of these videos! Where are they!

[The Funk]

[quote name='AM1' post='451433' date='Apr 1 2009, 01:07 PM']The thing I find most difficult on the right hand is playing with my thumb on the pickup and crossing strings without other strings ringing and also knowing which fingers to use on which strings. The floating thumb type technique is almost instinctive but I could probably get more speed eventually if I anchored my thumb.[/quote]

I'm a bit confused about your right hand technique.

You should alternate your index and middle finger for each note. If you're playing with traditional floating thumb, then it shouldn't be resting on the pick-up. Can you describe it a bit more?

[AM1]

[quote name='The Funk' post='451460' date='Apr 1 2009, 01:29 PM']I'm a bit confused about your right hand technique.

You should alternate your index and middle finger for each note. If you're playing with traditional floating thumb, then it shouldn't be resting on the pick-up. Can you describe it a bit more?[/quote]

Hello, no it currently only rests on the pick up when I play notes on the E string, then when I play other strings I damp the one above with my thumb, so it's not true floating thumb....do you know what I mean?

I alternate my index and middle finger for the notes but when I cross strings I move my thumb.

As opposed to always having my thumb on the pickup and crossing strings with only two fingers.

Capiche?

Edited April 1, 2009 by AM1

[crez5150]

There are no hard and fast rules.... That's what makes players unique....

[51m0n]

Whilst its true that harmonically funk is pretty simple, a lot of funk feel is damned hard to master.

Even Sex Machine, which is not that tough of a riff, is really taxing on people coming from a rock/punk/blues or even jazz rhythmic background. Bootsy laid down some of the all time ultimate funk grooves with JB, and a lot of them use very natural sounding, but really hard to nail 16th note syncopation, and the real trick is he often played lines that syncopate off different 16th notes each beat in the bar.

TOP is devastatingly hard in comparison, just because its so fast. Sure you maybe can play the line, but if you dont play it as solid as Rocco and grooving as hard then you have a way to go, and very few people can really do it (I know I seriously struggle when I start tying to play things like On The Serious Side - it sounds simple but its a killer).

The notes used are almost irrelevant, you only need the root an octave, a fifth (maybe) and some mutes to be funky as hell. Notes don't make funk, groove does.

I'd say listen to Craig Charles' Funk show every week, record it and cop you 5 favourite grooves off the program each week. One a day through the week. You'll be naturally funky in no time!

Edited April 1, 2009 by 51m0n

[AM1]

[quote name='crez5150' post='451466' date='Apr 1 2009, 01:33 PM']There are no hard and fast rules.... That's what makes players unique....[/quote]

I think there's definitely two mindsets in that respect.

Those who dispense with the conventional and do their own thing..and those who criticise them for it!

[AM1]

[quote name='51m0n' post='451473' date='Apr 1 2009, 01:40 PM']Whilst its true that harmonically funk is pretty simple, a lot of funk feel is damned hard to master.

Even Sex Machine, which is not that tough of a riff, is really taxing on people coming from a rock/punk/blues or even jazz rhythmic background. Bootsy laid down some of the all time ultimate funk grooves with JB, and a lot of them use very natural sounding, but really hard to nail 16th note syncopation, and the real trick is he often played lines that syncopate off different 16th notes each beat in the bar.

TOP is devastatingly hard in comparison, just because its so fast. Sure you maybe can play the line, but if you dont play it as solid as Rocco and grooving as hard then you have a way to go, and very few people can really do it (I know I seriously struggle when I start tying to play things like On The Serious Side - it sounds simple but its a killer).[/quote]

Exactly right!

[quote name='51m0n' post='451473' date='Apr 1 2009, 01:40 PM']The notes used are almost irrelevant, you only need the root an octave, a fifth (maybe) and some mutes to be funky as hell. Notes don't make funk, groove does.[/quote]

I got a book of disco and funk grooves a few months ago and then realised it's my rhythm and technique that needs serious work to play what I really want to play.

[alexclaber]

I guess my right hand technique is rather like my left hand technique. So if I'm just reaching for an octave or suchlike then I'll leave my right hand thumb in place (resting on pickup, body or B, E or A string), whilst if I'm shifting up a string or two and staying there for a phrase then my thumb will shift. It never anchors, it only rests. Anchoring implies excessive tension!

Likewise my left hand will pivot about the thumb to reach farther than the 3 or 4 frets I normally cover but if the phrase requires then the thumb will shift.

Try playing major and minor scales where you play the root then octave on each note, and then try going root root octave octave. That should get your right hand string skipping pretty well.

Alex

[lowdown]

[quote name='51m0n' post='451473' date='Apr 1 2009, 01:40 PM']Even Sex Machine, which is not that tough of a riff, is really taxing on people coming from a rock/punk/blues or even jazz rhythmic background. Bootsy laid down some of the all time ultimate funk grooves with JB, and a lot of them use very natural sounding, but really hard to nail 16th note syncopation, and the real trick is he often played lines that syncopate off different 16th notes each beat in the bar.[/quote]

No its not a tough riff,
Its the swing feel that Bootsy played, that tells it apart from a lot of guys i hear play it.

Garry

[AM1]

[quote name='lowdown' post='451483' date='Apr 1 2009, 01:52 PM']No its not a tough riff,
Its the swing feel that Bootsy played, that tells it apart from a lot of guys i hear play it.

Garry[/quote]

I think what he meant was it's getting the groove that's the difficult bit.

It's all about groove!!

Listen to Pick Up the Pieces, there's a break section in it near the end, then this unbelievably funky bassline comes in...there really aren't that many notes and it is probably not difficult to play the notes...but man that groove....now THAT is the sh1t!

THAT'S what I want to be able to do!

[alexclaber]

[quote name='51m0n' post='451473' date='Apr 1 2009, 01:40 PM']Even Sex Machine, which is not that tough of a riff, is really taxing on people coming from a rock/punk/blues or even jazz rhythmic background. Bootsy laid down some of the all time ultimate funk grooves with JB, and a lot of them use very natural sounding, but really hard to nail 16th note syncopation, and the real trick is he often played lines that syncopate off different 16th notes each beat in the bar.[/quote]

I have never ever heard anyone play Sex Machine like Bootsy did. Even JB's band couldn't do it right once he left. Incredibly difficult feel.

[quote name='51m0n' post='451473' date='Apr 1 2009, 01:40 PM']TOP is devastatingly hard in comparison, just because its so fast. Sure you maybe can play the line, but if you dont play it as solid as Rocco and grooving as hard then you have a way to go, and very few people can really do it (I know I seriously struggle when I start tying to play things like On The Serious Side - it sounds simple but its a killer).[/quote]

I'd say that ToP is much easier feelwise than Sex Machine but damn, it is fast, and more than that to get that tone you have to dig in hard with the right hand and mute very heavily with the left. Keeping that pace and top spin up for an entire song requires incredible stamina.

Check out The Meters too. Technically very easy to play but the feel is hard - you need to sit back and cope with the drums sitting even further back.

Alex

[molan]

Can't beat Rocco:

Edited April 1, 2009 by molan

[lowdown]

[quote name='AM1' post='451489' date='Apr 1 2009, 01:59 PM']I think what he meant was it's getting the groove that's the difficult bit.

[b]It's all about groove!![/b][/quote]

Thats exactly what i meant when i said there was a swing [16th] about the groove.

Garry

[chris_b]

You are reading way too much into funk playing. It's not about technique it's about feel. You can be funky with just one note if it’s played right! Old school funk is mainly riff oriented so riffing would have been more important than knowing scales to those guys.

[i]What you must do is to groove and always lock with the drummer.[/i]

Don't analyse too much about how to play funk just pick some numbers, there have been some good suggestions so far, and play them till you get them right.

Also try these:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL1lV-NJfak"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL1lV-NJfak[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeeOPR8bxac"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeeOPR8bxac[/url]