Amps? For your enjoyment or audience?

[javi_bassist]

3 hours ago, barrycreed said:

@javi_bassistdo you use a FRFR speaker as your "amp" as well? What if the venue doesn't have monitors?

I've never used an FRFR, but I'm curious about them. 

I have my in ears in case I don't have monitors. Begore going to the venue I usually ask about the backline they have, just in case I have to take my amp.

[Jack]

On 07/10/2021 at 13:33, lemmywinks said:

 

I don't think it's getting carried away at all, there's no magic sauce involved with bass amps and dedicated bass brands will be well behind the curve when it comes to integrating everything into one box. Is there a 1x15 bass combo that could outdo an RCF 745 for example? The last 1x15 I enjoyed using was a Markbass Jeff Berlin and I would take one of our old RCF 725a cabs over it every day of the week.

 

As I said I love bass amps and still spend more time perving over them than any other bit of kit. There's no desire to use them live over anything else though, especially if I can cut down on load in and setup time.

The thing is though is that the 745 is almost £1100, plus there's the price of a preamp, which is like £150-£a million. £1200-£1500 will buy you one hell of a traditional rig, a Barefaced Super Compact and a nice Markbass or Ashdown head for instance. That would certainly compete in terms of everything that matters, build quality, sounds, volume, size, weight, etc. 

 

Hey, I'm a convert. I gig with a bass and a Pedaltrain Nano, very occasionally a QSC K12.2 or two. But there's more than one way to skin this cat. 

[lemmywinks]

1 hour ago, Jack said:

The thing is though is that the 745 is almost £1100, plus there's the price of a preamp, which is like £150-£a million. £1200-£1500 will buy you one hell of a traditional rig, a Barefaced Super Compact and a nice Markbass or Ashdown head for instance. That would certainly compete in terms of everything that matters, build quality, sounds, volume, size, weight, etc. 

 

Hey, I'm a convert. I gig with a bass and a Pedaltrain Nano, very occasionally a QSC K12.2 or two. But there's more than one way to skin this cat. 

 

Gan get a 735A for around the same price as a Super Compact, a few places have the 745 for just over a grand.

 

Not saying either option isn't valid, just a lot of the reasons given for dismissing alternatives to traditional amps aren't based in reality - the main one being that unless you have a dedicated bass amp you somehow can't provide bass out front without PA assistance and also that it would somehow be automatically inferior because it isn't a wooden box with a known bass brand on the front.

[2elliot]

Interesting thread. I played my first gig last weekend since lockdown.  I did plan to just DI straight from a Sansamp I had recently bought and use the stage monitoring but the sound that it produced didn't work for the band or me, I ended up buying another Orange 4Stroke for the gig as that is what I has previously used with this band... which happened to be the right decision. Every thing was spot on during sound check, I could step back and hear my amp or step forward for the fold back, perfect. Unfortunately, the monitors failed as we started to play our first number which was a bit of a nightmare as we use a drum machine but we could just hear enough of the FOH to get away with it, luckily we all had amps on stage and based on this experience we always will. The fold back did come back at various times during our set but it was a mess, the sound levels were all over.

 

Amp on stage always, the DI only would have been a disaster.

[tauzero]

I was considering FRFR. Most of my gigs are with the bass amp used for FOH and a vocal/keys/acoustic guitar PA. However, my back is deteriorating, and none of the FRFRs were anything like as light as I wanted, so I've now got a 9.5kg 500W combo (could go to 800W with an extension). One person's one-handed lift is another person's sack truck. Plus who's going to buy/store/transport the PA if it's only me that would need it upgraded from the current one?

 

If other people want to use FRFRs and go through the PA, that's fine by me. However, it does not match my needs, so I won't be.

[ianrendall]

@Jamescullumdidn’t you used to do the jam nights at Woods Wine Bar back in the day?

[Jamescullum]

On 13/10/2021 at 23:15, ianrendall said:

@Jamescullumdidn’t you used to do the jam nights at Woods Wine Bar back in the day?

No buddy. I am a Yeovil boy and regularly went to woods though. Use to play there loads in an old band called soul73 and I did pa for the sundays when they use to have multi band days. Our paths have crossed I’m sure. Definitely mutual friends locally. 

[NancyJohnson]

On the OP, I've had maybe five-ten people comment on my tone in 30+ years of playing and most of those were bassists.

 

It always makes me laugh seeing these guys, their feet dancing and tapping over these huge boards full of every conceivable pedal, all the while front of house there's zero discernable change to what's coming out if the PA.  Sure these stomps alter tone in isolation, but in a live/band context those nuances are lost.

 

In general, the audience doesn't care what you sound like.  They really don't.

[Jack]

5 hours ago, NancyJohnson said:

On the OP, I've had maybe five-ten people comment on my tone in 30+ years of playing and most of those were bassists.

 

It always makes me laugh seeing these guys, their feet dancing and tapping over these huge boards full of every conceivable pedal, all the while front of house there's zero discernable change to what's coming out if the PA.  Sure these stomps alter tone in isolation, but in a live/band context those nuances are lost.

 

In general, the audience doesn't care what you sound like.  They really don't.

I think you're absolutely right, and I also think it's true that we're all 'most people' outside of our own one or two areas of interest. My brother in law is always taking us all to interesting micro breweries and buying me really obscure craft ales that are made with Nigerian spring water, flavoured with jojoba extract and hand made by Tibetan monks. It all just tastes like beer to me. 

 

That being said though I have no interest in just playing to the lowest common denominator in the crowd. Tap dancing on pedals makes me happy, and as long as I'm not hurting anyone (like noodling guitarists! Grrrrrr) then I shall continue to do so. If sometime notices the ever so subtle phaser for that one intro then great, if they just see a happy bassist playing well and enjoying himself then I'll take that. 

[NancyJohnson]

19 minutes ago, Jack said:

I think you're absolutely right, and I also think it's true that we're all 'most people' outside of our own one or two areas of interest. My brother in law is always taking us all to interesting micro breweries and buying me really obscure craft ales that are made with Nigerian spring water, flavoured with jojoba extract and hand made by Tibetan monks. It all just tastes like beer to me. 

 

That being said though I have no interest in just playing to the lowest common denominator in the crowd. Tap dancing on pedals makes me happy, and as long as I'm not hurting anyone (like noodling guitarists! Grrrrrr) then I shall continue to do so. If sometime notices the ever so subtle phaser for that one intro then great, if they just see a happy bassist playing well and enjoying himself then I'll take that. 

 

First out, I'm not a fan of stomps and as I've yet to find an amp that offers a single step solution to make me sound like I want, my signal path is simple, pretty much bass>DI-2112>effects return and I play with everything open/full on the bass.  That's it.

 

I've seen guys with mahoosive boards containing multiple drives and effects and most have zero idea on how to balance their board so nothing on there overpowers anything else or where their chorus should sit in the signal chain.  It makes my heart sink when I see someone toe-poke a pedal and the bass just disappears and they're just about miming until it's turned off again.  As I mentioned earlier, honestly, nobody watching cares whether you're using a certain pedal that cost £££ any more that they're interested about my gear or what I sound like.  They're all watching the singer or looking at their phones.

[BigRedX]

The patches on my Helix are carefully crafted so that when the guitars or synths change in either of my bands the bass changes with it to still sit properly in the mix. It takes a fair bit of time and several rehearsals to work all the nuances out.

 

I look at in in the same way as that old cliché that no no-one notices the bass until it isn't there. Unless my sound has been specifically picked to stand out in the mix (there are a few songs where this is needed) the patch changes are there to keep the overall instrumental balance right. Most of the time the average audience member won't notice that anything has changed. However if I didn't have different patches for each song (or section of the song) they probably would notice that the bass is suddenly too loud/quiet/bright/muddy.

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited March 15, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Jack]

19 hours ago, NancyJohnson said:

 

First out, I'm not a fan of stomps and as I've yet to find an amp that offers a single step solution to make me sound like I want, my signal path is simple, pretty much bass>DI-2112>effects return and I play with everything open/full on the bass.  That's it.

 

I've seen guys with mahoosive boards containing multiple drives and effects and most have zero idea on how to balance their board so nothing on there overpowers anything else or where their chorus should sit in the signal chain.  It makes my heart sink when I see someone toe-poke a pedal and the bass just disappears and they're just about miming until it's turned off again.  As I mentioned earlier, honestly, nobody watching cares whether you're using a certain pedal that cost £££ any more that they're interested about my gear or what I sound like.  They're all watching the singer or looking at their phones.

The fact that some people can't use effects properly doesn't mean they're bad. Plenty of people are bad drivers, I still have a car. 

 

Whilst I really do agree with the general point that nobody cares if I was to swap my Klon for a TS9, I very much disagree with the general nihilism that because nobody notices gear and therefore it must follow that nobody cares about the music. If I thought I brought so little to the band I'd stop playing. 

[bassman7755]

18 hours ago, Jus Lukin said:

I think that this is very key. I liken it to my interest in film, which I come to as a complete layman. There are no doubt countless details and techniques employed at every moment of a good film, from the writing to the cinematography, to the lighting and dubbing. I only really notice those things if they aren't quite up to scratch, however! Moreover, I don't really care about those details- as a viewer I just want to experience a good film. However, someone needs to consider those things so that I don't notice them

 

This is kind of where I am, people definitely enjoy a band that has a good balanced sound with good sounding instruments more even if they don't consciously know why. However in this day and age theres really no reason to have to "tap dance" - just get a decent processor board and change the patch. 

[BassmanPaul]

The way I look at my amplifier is that it's my job to play bass and get 'MY' sound out to the audience.  I detest distortion in my sound. I had to put up with it for so long as I was coming up. My day job sent me to EE school as part of my technical education. At the time tubes/valves were still current technology. I used the knowledge to guide me to my final system that I still own. Playing six string instruments I wanted the low B to be produced as accurately as my high C.

 

I finally settled on Acme B2 2x10 three way cabinets I ended up with four boxes all at 4Ω. I bought a 2KW capable power amp that would drive all four.. Still enjoying building with tubes I designed a two channel full tube pre-amp to drive it. The results were phenomenal.I must admit that I usually only use two cabinets at a time.

 

When playing in venues that have a full PA, I send it a signal identical to that that drives my power amp. Had no complaints so far! LOL

 

With my own PA I use the Acme cabs as subwoofers and just plug into the mixer and add a suitable crossover and another power amp.

Edited October 18, 2021 by BassmanPaul

[Downunderwonder]

13 hours ago, BassmanPaul said:

I send it a signal identical to that that drives my power amp

This is the point of FRFR cabinets. Provided you aren't stuffed on a stage with a hollow booming floor or a 10ft reflecting ceiling your customary preamp settings work very well for you, then it's down to the FOH to have their kaka together with the PA eq'd to the room.

[Downunderwonder]

13 hours ago, BassmanPaul said:

With my own PA I use the Acme cabs as subwoofers and just plug into the mixer and add a suitable crossover and another power amp.

What Al could do with his current gear.

[karlbbb]

On 08/10/2021 at 18:49, Jack said:

The thing is though is that the 745 is almost £1100, plus there's the price of a preamp, which is like £150-£a million. £1200-£1500 will buy you one hell of a traditional rig, a Barefaced Super Compact and a nice Markbass or Ashdown head for instance. That would certainly compete in terms of everything that matters, build quality, sounds, volume, size, weight, etc. 

 

Hey, I'm a convert. I gig with a bass and a Pedaltrain Nano, very occasionally a QSC K12.2 or two. But there's more than one way to skin this cat. 

But with this example rig you'd lose out on an immense versatility! To make it a fair comparison, you'd need to also buy every head your modeler can model, plus every cab available (I don't think the BF SC is an FRFR?). Plus if you have one of the more expensive modellers, you have a vast array of guitar amps to choose from should you choose, again meaning you'd need to buy every amp head and cab combo available. We'd probably be in the £20,000+ range to get all that gear.

 

With modelling being so good these days that professional players fail a blind comparison test and huge acts switching to them in droves, it's hard to begin to a cost comparison of any "traditional rig" vs modelling as they'll always lose. Not a dig in any way, just making a general point of whether it's even fair to try and compare them 👍😃

Edited October 19, 2021 by karlbbb

[bassman7755]

2 hours ago, karlbbb said:

But with this example rig you'd lose out on an immense versatility! To make it a fair comparison, you'd need to also buy every head your modeler can model, plus every cab available

 

Well the comparison is really with the modelled stuff you actually use since the stuff you dont is of no value, but even there it usually wins. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by bassman7755

[chris_b]

3 hours ago, karlbbb said:

With modelling being so good these days . . . . . .

 

I'd suggest that the number of bassists requiring this level of flexibility or this number of choices is very small.

 

If you need to emulate the sound of a dozen different amps then I guess these pieces of kit are for you. I don't and I don't see any of the bassists regularly playing gigs around town, most of whom don't even use pedals, wanting that either.

 

As always YMMV

 

[BigRedX]

8 minutes ago, chris_b said:

 

I'd suggest that the number of bassists requiring this level of flexibility or this number of choices is very small.

 

If you need to emulate the sound of a dozen different amps then I guess these pieces of kit are for you. I don't and I don't see any of the bassists regularly playing gigs around town, most of whom don't even use pedals, wanting that either.

 

As always YMMV

 

It's not always about having lots of different sounds. Sometime it can be about finding the right sound for the band/music and being about to get it every time you set your gear up.

 

It's all very well having a "great sounding" conventional bass rig, but if it doesn't produce the right sound for your particular musical endeavour then it's worthless.

 

I currently play in two bands. The core sound I use for each band is entirely different because of the songs, the arrangements and overall feel needed for each band.

 

Even if I just decided to play with one band and a single bass sound was completely appropriate for all the songs in the set, I'd still use the same Helix and FRFR set up because it gives me enough options to get that one right sound without having to think about swapping amps and/or cabs and getting into that endless buying and selling spiral of looking for "the tone". 

[bassman7755]

7 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Even if I just decided to play with one band and a single bass sound was completely appropriate for all the songs in the set, I'd still use the same Helix and FRFR set up because it gives me enough options to get that one right sound without having to think about swapping amps and/or cabs and getting into that endless buying and selling spiral of looking for "the tone". 

 

Plus everyone gets to hear the same tone, you and the band and the audience through the PA (where appropriate).

[peteb]

3 hours ago, chris_b said:

 

I'd suggest that the number of bassists requiring this level of flexibility or this number of choices is very small.

 

If you need to emulate the sound of a dozen different amps then I guess these pieces of kit are for you. I don't and I don't see any of the bassists regularly playing gigs around town, most of whom don't even use pedals, wanting that either.

 

As always YMMV

 

 

I think that people just have different approaches, but I think that some just get enamoured with new technology and it can become (like you said in a previous post) a solution desperately looking for a problem. 

 

I essentially have one sound that (with minor tweaks) I use for every gig I do, which range from AOR originals to blues bands to a Led Zeppelin tribute. I’m sill getting decent gigs, so it must be working to some extent. Virtually all of my peers / acquaintances still use amps, even the guys who are proper pros. 

 

The only reason I could see for someone like me to have a Helix would be if I had to get to gigs on the train. I am unlikely to ever be offered a gig where I would have to have a Helix or whatever, but there are plenty where I would be expected to bring an amp. 

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by peteb

[stewblack]

I guess we're in the midst of great technological change and these debates will be commonplace until things settle down.

 

Personally I doubt I'll ever find a band who like the bass to sound how I like it regardless of how I get my sound. 

 

If I'm lucky enough to get back to playing big stages with decent sound engineering front and side stage then my sound and set up will be entirely for my own benefit. As such I'll use whatever amp and cabs give me the most joy.

[Downunderwonder]

5 hours ago, bassman7755 said:

 

Well the comparison is really with the modelled stuff you actually use since the stuff you dont is of no value, but even there it usually wins. 

The value in modeling is twofold.

 

The sound comes out of a DI ready wrapped for FOH to put on show.

 

There's a bazillion rigs in one box.