Music Theory: Where to begin?

[GStar]

I've been playing for a while now, i've played on my own and with people on stage and in rehersal rooms, i've written songs and i've learnt songs; i'm at a point where i might physically be able to play a piece but i don't know 'why' or 'how' it works; why this note goes with that note etc. I've noticed a few patterns, i understand (or have heard of and utilised) octaves, root, 5ths and the major and minor scale but thats about it, i have no clue of music theory whatsoever and i'd like to learn.

I've seen sites like studybass.com which looks to run through scales and modes which i presume will be of use but i was wondering if anyone had any advice on a starting structure of some sort of where to begin and where to go from there. I could learn a major or minor scale but will the websites tell me why im learning it and how i can put it to use?

I realise im rambling and not being very coherent, perhaps what i'm looking for is a bass tutor, but whilst i save up some pennies is there any advice whatsoever to start out with, the fundamentals to learn, the 'core comptentences' every bass player (or musician for that matter) worth thier salt should know inside out as standard. I just don't know where to start and what to start with.

Any help or advice is appreciated.

[Bilbo]

I always recommend Mark Levine's 'Jazz Theory Book'. It has a nice clear lay out and is easy to follow and is not just for jazz players so don't let the title put you off.

Where are you? There may be someone near you on here who can help.

[GStar]

Hi Bilbo, I'm based in Manchester City Centre pretty much 95% of the year.

I'll get into town and have a search for Levine's book; would you recommend simply following him page by page and then focusing on the a particular style i.e Jazz/Funk/Rock/Pop/Blues or am i looking at it the wrong way?

I think in the end, it probably will be a person/teacher that i'd seek, but with the wealth of multimedia and information from all different areas now available i hoped there'd be a less expensive way i could start tackling at my own pace until i got to a level where more guidance may help.

[Thunderthumbs]

PMd.

Also, try [url="http://www.practicesightreading.com"]www.practicesightreading.com[/url] which will also give you the basics of notation (although more in a rhythmic sense rather than scales). One feature it has is to set random scores of rhythms in different time signatures for varying numbers of bars at 6 different levels (adding different groups of notes each time). It also has a playback feature at the bottom of each score, and you can change the settings of it for things such as tempo. Always start slow, and build up very gradually. Patience really is the key. I'm doing much the same thing as you at the moment. I read music when I was a violin playing child, but haven't read for nearly 30 years. So now I'm on a quest of personal development.

There is one very important paragraph at the start of Mark Levine's book, where he is referring to the prerequisites for becoming a good (jazz) musician.

1. Talent (ears, time, a sense of form)
2. Direction (exposure to the right music for you)
3. Education (teachers, mentors)
4. Ambition

He goes on to say that the most important is "Ambition". Not ambition in the sense of wanting to be a star, but in the sense of [i]having the will, desire, and stamina to practice.[/i] If you don't have this quality, all the talent in the world means nothing.

Wise words indeed.

[The Funk]

[quote name='GStar' post='452723' date='Apr 2 2009, 08:33 PM']I'll get into town and have a search for Levine's book; would you recommend simply following him page by page and then focusing on the a particular style i.e Jazz/Funk/Rock/Pop/Blues or am i looking at it the wrong way?[/quote]

Fantastic book. Go through it page by page - it's set out in the perfect order.

While you're going through the book you should also already be playing at blues jams (they're easy and fun) and in some kind of rock band. If you have time to get playing with some beginner jazzers as well, then you're laughing. Get backing a female vocal diva and then you've got most things covered. When you'd have time to eat, sleep, practice and work, I don't know.

Just re-read your post and you say you've been playing a fairly long time so none of the above is meant to sound patronising.

[dr.funk]

[url="http://www.solfege.org/"]Solfege[/url] is an interesting program which has various ear training exercises, I found it quite useful a while back and intend to spend a bit more quality time with it this summer.

[GStar]

Not patronising at all Funk; i've not been playing that long in the grand scheme of things (around 6/7 years on and off - picked up the bass when i was 15/16) and my technical knowledge is absolutely zero.

I'll probbly continue to ask some pretty stupid questions at time, so hopefully i dont get too tedious, speaking of which:

It seems like Levine's book is seen as a good place to start; Thunderthumbs (Pete) has kindly offered to help me out with a few resources and BB2000 (John) has kindly sent me a link to try out. It seems also that reading and hearing is an important part of learning, as Dr Funk has mentioned too.

Where do i start? What do i want to focus on first? I'd guess some form of theory so i've got something to play when reading and something to use as a framework when listening by ear? Am i thinking along the right lines - Book first, then perhaps look at sight/ear work?

[The Funk]

[quote name='GStar' post='453332' date='Apr 3 2009, 01:22 PM']Am i thinking along the right lines - Book first, then perhaps look at sight/ear work?[/quote]

Yes but really it's all different routes to the same thing. Eventually you have to understand, recognise and be able to use all the things you're going to be learning.

Your ear can improve just as much by playing scales/chords as trying to pick them out from a record.

The book will introduce you to reading AND it gets you to play certain chords/scales as examples. If you have access to some kind of keyboard instrument - even a £20 3-octave MIDI controller keyboard - then you'll be able to hear some of the chords we as bass players will be playing against.

[xilddx]

[quote name='GStar' post='452699' date='Apr 2 2009, 07:55 PM']I've been playing for a while now, i've played on my own and with people on stage and in rehersal rooms, i've written songs and i've learnt songs; i'm at a point where i might physically be able to play a piece but i don't know 'why' or 'how' it works; why this note goes with that note etc. I've noticed a few patterns, i understand (or have heard of and utilised) octaves, root, 5ths and the major and minor scale but thats about it, i have no clue of music theory whatsoever and i'd like to learn.

I've seen sites like studybass.com which looks to run through scales and modes which i presume will be of use but i was wondering if anyone had any advice on a starting structure of some sort of where to begin and where to go from there. I could learn a major or minor scale but will the websites tell me why im learning it and how i can put it to use?

I realise im rambling and not being very coherent, perhaps what i'm looking for is a bass tutor, but whilst i save up some pennies is there any advice whatsoever to start out with, the fundamentals to learn, the 'core comptentences' every bass player (or musician for that matter) worth thier salt should know inside out as standard. I just don't know where to start and what to start with.

Any help or advice is appreciated.[/quote]

Although I used to argue the opposite, I've come round to Bilbo's (and many other's of course) way of thinking over the last few months that theory is [u]really [/u]important if you want to be a [b][u]musician[/u][/b]. I've got good manual dexterity, good ears, timing, groove, blah, but lately when I pick up the bass I've been feeling like I'm I'm in a decent car with nowhere to go. I think I'm in the same situation as you and I need a map. So, I'm going to get this Mark Levine's 'Jazz Theory Book' too and somehow find the time to work, eat, sleep and practice too. I have to start a year's study for a (not music related) diploma in September so I need to get some of this music theory down before then. Anyway, I just stopped drinking every night so I need someting serious to concentrate on

[xilddx]

Erm, ok, read some reviews of this Levine book and it assumes you can read music notation, which I can only barely do, and with much effort. Wouldn't a [b]Music Theory for Dickwads [/b]book be better for newts like us? To get us started? Then move onto Levine?

[The Funk]

Nah, Levine's book also teaches you how to read, from what I remember.

[xilddx]

Excellent, thanks!

[Eight]

Let's start at the very beginning
A very good place to start

When you read you begin with
A-B-C

When you sing you begin with do-re-mi

i.e. scales and intervals

[JPAC]

Here's a starter link and further reading, including quasihemidemisemiquavers ; [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_theory"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_theory[/url] HTH

Edited April 7, 2009 by JPAC

[The Funk]

[quote name='JPAC' post='456546' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:29 PM']Here's a starter link and further reading, including quasihemidemisemiquavers ; [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_theory"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_theory[/url][/quote]

Aren't those 128th notes? I've seen some metal drummers slip into 64th notes - don't think I've ever seen 128th notes!

[Paul_C]

[url="http://www.dolmetsch.com/theoryintro.htm"]http://www.dolmetsch.com/theoryintro.htm[/url]

[XB26354]

+1, a great site and a gold-mine of obscure info about the origins of music theory.

[xilddx]

OK, quick question.

If the major 2nd interval [b]above [/b]C is D, is the major 2nd interval [b]below [/b]C, Bb or is it D an octave lower?

Thanks.

Edited April 8, 2009 by silddx

[SteveO]

[quote name='silddx' post='457742' date='Apr 8 2009, 08:35 PM']OK, quick question.

If the major 2nd interval [b]above [/b]C is D, is the major 2nd interval [b]below [/b]C, Bb or is it D an octave lower?

Thanks.[/quote]
Bb

If you want an analogy, think of it in this way...

30 + 2 = 32

30 - 2 = 28, not 22

(the number 30 bears no relevance at all, just used to demonstrate the principle.)

Edited April 9, 2009 by SteveO

[Simon]

[quote name='SteveO' post='457818' date='Apr 8 2009, 09:12 PM']Bb

If you want an analogy, think of it in this way...

30 + 2 = 32

30 - 2 = 28, not 22

(the number 30 bears no relevance at all, just used to demonstrate the principle.)[/quote]

In C Major wouldn't it be B not Bb...

(wow, that was a lot of b's)

[The Funk]

Nah, that's a minor 2nd below.

[Simon]

[quote name='The Funk' post='458196' date='Apr 9 2009, 11:08 AM']Nah, that's a minor 2nd below.[/quote]

Course. I'm thinking Major 7th an octave lower.

[The Funk]

That's how I prefer to think of it too!

[Paul_C]

[quote name='silddx' post='457742' date='Apr 8 2009, 07:35 PM']OK, quick question.

If the major 2nd interval [b]above [/b]C is D, is the major 2nd interval [b]below [/b]C, Bb or is it D an octave lower?

Thanks.[/quote]

If you read the Dolmetsch article on intervals, you'll see that the "usual/common/preffered/?" method for describing intervals is from the lower note upwards, so you'd need to define the lower note first, and then the interval will describe its relationship with the note above.

[Bilbo]

Reading this thread, I have just realised that, whilst I know the theory, I refer to the interval in question as a whole tone above or below and don't start talking about intervals numerically until its a minor third or greater - major or minor seconds are not generally in my vocabulary. Flattened ninths, yes, but not minor seconds.

Odd that.