Music Theory: Where to begin?

[The Funk]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='458234' date='Apr 9 2009, 11:57 AM']Reading this thread, I have just realised that, whilst I know the theory, I refer to the interval in question as a whole tone above or below and don't start talking about intervals numerically until its a minor third or greater - major or minor seconds are not generally in my vocabulary. Flattened ninths, yes, but not minor seconds.

Odd that.[/quote]

Could that be a jazz thing? You guys sometimes play flat 9ths on V7 chords, don't ya?

[Paul_C]

I'd tend to describe the theoretical note in question in terms of its relation to the root an octave lower, so if it's a tone below the C it's a minor 7th from the lower C

[SteveO]

[quote name='Simon' post='458194' date='Apr 9 2009, 11:59 AM']In C Major wouldn't it be B not Bb...

(wow, that was a lot of b's)[/quote]
No, don't get confused between the major second intervals and second note of the scale. A major second interval is two semitones. the Second note of the major scale is also two semitones up from the root, but, in the words of Ira Gershwin "It ain't necessarily so" e.g the third of a major scale is 4 semitones up from the root, the third of a minor scale is 3 semitones up from the root.

I seem to remember that it's all described in the Levine book that Bilbo keeps suggesting that we all read, Near the beginning i think, so now we know who's not doing their homework eh

[Thunderthumbs]

[quote name='SteveO' post='458250' date='Apr 9 2009, 12:09 PM']No, don't get confused between the major second intervals and second note of the scale. A major second interval is two semitones. the Second note of the major scale is also two semitones up from the root, but, in the words of Ira Gershwin "It ain't necessarily so" e.g the third of a major scale is 4 semitones up from the root, the third of a minor scale is 3 semitones up from the root.

I seem to remember that it's all described in the Levine book that Bilbo keeps suggesting that we all read, Near the beginning i think, so now we know who's not doing their homework eh [/quote]
You mean the attached?

[attachment=23522:Intervals_in_C.pdf]

[xilddx]

[quote name='Paul_C' post='458225' date='Apr 9 2009, 11:51 AM']If you read the Dolmetsch article on intervals, you'll see that the "usual/common/preffered/?" method for describing intervals is from the lower note upwards, so you'd need to define the lower note first, and then the interval will describe its relationship with the note above.[/quote]

That's fine and dandy (I think), but if I ask you to sing me the major 2nd below C, then I now know that will be B[i]b[/i], ie. a whole tone down. I suppose I am so used to thinking of scales ascending, not descending, but now I know to treat a descending scale as a mirror of the ascending scale, in terms of intervals. [i][b]EDIT:[/b] Actually now I think about it, this is wrong, I don't mean scales at all do I? I simply mean intervals?[/i]

Now, what the hell is a [b]decim[/b]? 10th?

Thanks for all your help! I hope I'm not going to turn into an annoying grasshopper ;-)

Edited April 9, 2009 by silddx

[Paul_C]

[quote name='silddx' post='458282' date='Apr 9 2009, 12:28 PM']That's fine and dandy (I think), but if I ask you to sing me the major 2nd below C, then I now know that will be B[i]b[/i], ie. a whole tone down. I suppose I am so used to thinking of scales ascending, not descending, but now I know to treat a descending scale as a mirror of the ascending scale, in terms of intervals.

Now, what the hell is a [b]decim[/b]? 10th?

Thanks for all your help! I hope I'm not going to turn into an annoying grasshopper ;-)[/quote]

The only problem with your method is that if you mirror your intervals from a central note, the notes are going to form two different scales.

Descending from C on a C major scale gives you C B A G F E D C, descending on a mirrored C Major scale gives you C Bb Ab G F Eb Db C - (C phrygian ascending)

it might be better to think of them as whole or half tone steps than intervals, but if it works for you ..

[xilddx]

[quote name='Paul_C' post='458302' date='Apr 9 2009, 12:44 PM']The only problem with your method is that if you mirror your intervals from a central note, the notes are going to form two different scales.

Descending from C on a C major scale gives you C B A G F E D C, descending on a mirrored C Major scale gives you C Bb Ab G F Eb Db C - (C phrygian ascending)

it might be better to think of them as whole or half tone steps than intervals, but if it works for you ..[/quote]

Thanks Paul, I just realised I was in error and edited my post. Doh. It's just the intervals below I was thinking of.

[Paul_C]

[quote name='silddx' post='458304' date='Apr 9 2009, 12:46 PM']Thanks Paul, I just realised I was in error and edited my post. Doh. It's just the intervals below I was thinking of.[/quote]

that's why my feeling is that it's better described as a 7th or flat/minor 7th from the root below (in terms of an interval), than a 2nd or flat/minor 2nd from the note above - less chance of confusion

[SteveO]

[quote name='Paul_C' post='458318' date='Apr 9 2009, 01:55 PM']that's why my feeling is that it's better described as a 7th or flat/minor 7th from the root below (in terms of an interval), than a 2nd or flat/minor 2nd from the note above - less chance of confusion [/quote]

Nothing wrong with that. Saying 'down an octave and up a minor 7th' works just as well as saying 'down a minor 2nd', it's just a bit convoluted. Most people would use the interval both ways though as again it only means "two semitones" and has nothing to do with the key.

I see where you are coming from, but to me it's like calling 'C min' a 'C Maj b3'. Whilst just as valid a chord name it's easier to use the common terminology, more people will understand you straight away instead of them trying to work out what you mean.

[jim_bass]

Back to the OP.

I am reading the "AB guide to Music theory" This seems to be a standard for most people to learn from. My wife had it from her piano grades.

I think there are 2 books one for grades 1-5 and the other for 6-8 or something like that.

[Eight]

[quote name='jim_bass' post='467813' date='Apr 20 2009, 08:23 PM']I am reading the "AB guide to Music theory" This seems to be a standard for most people to learn from. My wife had it from her piano grades.

I think there are 2 books one for grades 1-5 and the other for 6-8 or something like that.[/quote]
Yup.

I'm not a big fan of those books to be honest. Contains everything you need to know to start with (1-5 volume) but I don't think its put together too well to really learn from. It always struck me as more of a reference backing to other material (such as the Music Theory In Practice series etc.)...

Having said that, its been a while since I looked at them as I lost my copies and haven't got around to buying another one yet.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Eight

[velvetkevorkian]

+1 They're very dry, and much for focused towards classical harmony/analysis IMO. The good thing about them is that they match up with the ABRSM graded theory exams.

[Kirky]

I don't mind the AB books. What is very useful is the past papers that you can buy very cheaply. I repeat an offer I've previously made - if anyone wants to to mark their sample papers, I'm happy to do so - just PM me.

Martin

[51m0n]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='452715' date='Apr 2 2009, 08:25 PM']I always recommend Mark Levine's 'Jazz Theory Book'. It has a nice clear lay out and is easy to follow and is not just for jazz players so don't let the title put you off.

Where are you? There may be someone near you on here who can help.[/quote]

Thats a very expensive book!

Anywhere I can get it for less than £35???

[JPAC]

"Bass guitar for Dummies" is a popular book that features music theory and a CD. £10ish.