Faital-Pro 12 pr 300....vs....Faital-Pro 12 pr 320

[ebenezer]

Seems like the pr 320 is a real step up, even though not quite as efficient.....has anybody tried it and what are your views?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

You don't need to try a driver to know how it works. The data sheet SPL chart shows how it works in the mids and highs, speaker modeling software shows how it works in the lows. That said, the 320 is quite a bit better than the 300.

[Phil Starr]

The 12PR 320 is the one we selected for the Basschat 112T cabinet as the best value for money/performance compromise we could find from any widely available manufacturer. It has been very widely tested and reviewed in these forums and i believe about 20 models have been built. That said it was selected or use in a 2 way cab. The decision might have been different if we had gone for a single driver without the tweeter. 

 

There are differences in the frequency response too with the 320 flatter up to 1kHz then with a pronounced but well controlled break up above that. 

 

However it isn't quite as simple as that, the big advantage o the 320 is the long voice coil and the consequent excellent excursion, that means it will handle the 300W thermal very well, it also has a heavier cone and will potentially go a little lower. Vas is higher though so it will probably need a bigger box, you'd have to mess around with the modelling to see if it was significant though. However if you were going to use this at lower power excursion might not be an issue but extra sensitivity welcome. The two speakers won't sound the same either looking at their midrange frequency responses and i wouldn't want to guess which you'd prefer.

 

If it helps I went for the 320's which are really nice speakers at any price. I know @Stevie is looking for a better speaker at a price no object level and is finding it hard to find anything which is significantly better all round.

 

It helps to start with a design spec in mind too, what do you want to use the speaker for?

[stevie]

The PR300 is/was used in a number of well regarded bass cabs. Of the top of my head, I can think of the Bergantino CN 1x12 and 2x12 (which won the Essex bass cab shootout against serious competition some years ago), the Vanderkley EXT112 and the Genz-Benz Neox. 

 

As Phil says, the main difference between the PR300 and the PR320 is the length of the voice coil, which is one of the key factors in determining the driver's excursion capability, or xmax. This point alone makes the PR320 a much better choice for bass guitar. 

 

I've been working with much more expensive 12" drivers recently, using the PR320 as my reference point, and I have to admit that spending more money does not always buy you a better-sounding driver. I'd go so far as to say it's the best-bang-for-your-buck 12" bass guitar driver right now. 

 

 

[agedhorse]

To clarify this often propagated and unsubstantiated "rumor", the Genz Benz products did not use a stock 12PR300. The soft parts were customized for our design goals with the stock metalwork. The difference is significant and for our goals worth the effort and cost of customization.

[Downunderwonder]

41 minutes ago, agedhorse said:

To clarify this often propagated and unsubstantiated "rumor", the Genz Benz products did not use a stock 12PR300. The soft parts were customized for our design goals with the stock metalwork. The difference is significant and for our goals worth the effort and cost of customization.

It's only a rumor in the US.

 

In UK it's a cold hard rumour.

[Phil Starr]

12 hours ago, agedhorse said:

To clarify this often propagated and unsubstantiated "rumor", the Genz Benz products did not use a stock 12PR300. The soft parts were customized for our design goals with the stock metalwork. The difference is significant and for our goals worth the effort and cost of customization.

If you can do tell more. Obviously we wouldn't expect commercially confidential details but the general principles of what you were trying to achieve and the methods you used to get there would be really interesting. 

[stevie]

Yes, it would be interesting to know what the "design goals" were, how the driver was altered and why it was considered beneficial.

[agedhorse]

I can be general, but correct I can't get specific because these techniques are in fact still used in commercial products being designed today.

 

One of the biggest challenges with any driver is balancing the desired characteristics with their side effects or negative attributes. Sometimes, this works in the designer's favor, but often they can conflict. The critical part of this is correctly identifying the attributes you wish to exploit and those you wish to minimize. It's easier said than done of course, and sometimes, it's simply an impossible set of compromises and a different approach in needed.

 

One characteristic that's VERY important to bass players is the midrange voicing, and how that voicing integrates with the tweeter. This is also heavily influenced by the polar pattern of the driver which is governed in part by the diameter of the driver but also by the cone/dust cap shape, material. 

 

Another characteristic is how well the driver tunes in the desired cabinet size. Different choices of soft parts results in different parameters that can make a driver more or less friendly to a particular range of cabinet sizes. This means that if the goal is a smaller than average cabinet size, TS parameters may be adjusted through the selection or tailoring of soft part properties.

 

Another property that a designer can address is what happens to the VC as it enters and exits the non-linear portion of the magnetic field and the shape of the magnetic field fringe is shaped, specifically the ends of the VC, and how the inductance and the VC current interact with the fringed fields. Note that the fields are often not perfectly symmetric, this can become a blessing or a curse depending on the goals and the component parts.

 

Xmax is something that comes up a lot in LF driver discussions, there are different definitions, sometimes different goals and sometimes different mechanisms depending on what parameter the designer is more concerned with. For example, it's possible to design a driver with more robust mechanical suspension parts than the basic Xmax might suggest depending of the characteristics of the fringe field performance, as well as long term ageing and mechanical reliability metrics. While the AES power rating standard is a 2 hour "must survive" test, I typically use a 200 hour "must survive" test because the companies I design for have longer warranty periods and the customers of those products typically have greater expectations.

 

This is just a little bit about what goes into designing a driver.

[Phil Starr]

Thanks @agedhorse I've never been in a position to specify a speaker. and it's frustrating sometimes to see the compromises manufacturers of drive units settle for. I'd understood 'soft parts'as being essentially the cone and dust cap plus the surround and suspension. The Faital PR300 is a good example, the stock unit looks to be very untidy under break up, the peak in the 320 much easier to deal with in crossover design and I would guess more acceptable for most of us as a sole driver. I'm kind of assuming these are some of the issues you were able to address and wondered how you approached the issues? 

 

Just curiosity really, I've reached an age where I don't think anyone is ever going to offer me the chance to specify the speaker I want.

[ebenezer]

I am using the genz benz 212 neox cab and very good it is, so whatever genz specified for the 12 pr300 is ok with me. 

[stevie]

The specs for the Genz Benz custom PR300 are available online for anyone interested in seeing what the difference is. Faital Pro is a quality brand and any bass cab fitted with their drivers is likely to be very good.

[LukeFRC]

Thanks @agedhorse - an educational read and thanks for sharing 

[agedhorse]

On 22/10/2021 at 05:52, ebenezer said:

I am using the genz benz 212 neox cab and very good it is, so whatever genz specified for the 12 pr300 is ok with me. 

There were 2 versions of the NeoX 212 cabinet. The original version used a custom Eminence driver and the NX2 version used a custom Faital driver. While the low frequency parameters are reasonably close, the mid voicing parameters are different as the goals for the cabinet line evolved.

[agedhorse]

9 hours ago, stevie said:

The specs for the Genz Benz custom PR300 are available online for anyone interested in seeing what the difference is. Faital Pro is a quality brand and any bass cab fitted with their drivers is likely to be very good.

Yes and no. The original specs posted by the seller were not correct because he was advertising them as stock 12PR300’s when in fact that was untrue. Eventually, that “oversight” was addressed.

 

The published TS parameters, as you know, only describe elements of the low frequency performance of the driver. The mid and high frequency performance characteristics are not described. I don’t believe that correct information was ever provided (though the incorrect info bounced around quite a bit.

 

This is because of an issue when somebody bought some of these drivers and they sounded quite different from the stock model in spite of the paperwork showing them being “identical “. Created some ill will.