Digital Mixer that is also an audio (output) interface

[BigRedX]

Having been following the various threads on digital mixers, I think I am ready to have a serious look at a digital mixer for at least one of my bands. 

 

However I have very specific and probably quite different requirements from the typical digital mixer user, so I thought rather than hijack someone else's thread I'll start a new one and I can ask my weird questions without messing up other discussions.

 

1. It needs to work as a multi-channel audio interface for outputting (not recording) audio from my MacBook Pro. Both bands use the MacBook Pro to provide additional backing for the live performance. For one band it has replaced the drummer and them them I just need to be able to send a stereo mix of drums and sound effects to the mixer via a digital connection of some kind (I have USB, ethernet and FireWire connections on the Mac - there is also a Thunderbolt port but I think this is for an external monitor only). The other band, however also has a drummer, and I need a way of separating out the click track that he plays to. Currently I use a Focusrite audio interface and output the backing for FoH as a stereo pair on Channels 1&2 and the click on Channel 3 which comes out of a separate socket on the interface and connects to the drummers headphone amp. I also need the main stereo output from the computer to have all the same routing and EQ options as any other input on the mixer.

 

This probably the most crucial feature and the one I am finding the hardest to get concrete facts about, as it appears that most users want to use the mixer as a recording rather than output device.

 

2. The controlling software for the mixer itself needs to run on the Mac (Catalina) via a wired connection. I can't be doing with WiFi and tablets/phones in a gigging environment. The computer will be right there, probably sat in the top 1U of the rack holding the mixer, and I have seen first hand all sorts of problems with trying to use consumer grade electronics at gigs, with connectivity as well as general charging/power problems. Anything I can do to avoid this will do a lot for my peace of mind.

 

3. I need to be able set up "scene snap shots" for each song on the mixer and then change between them from the DAW on the computer. That way when the next track is cued up on the DAW the mixer already has all the right EQ setting and FX routings for the external instruments - 1 Vocal mic, 2 keyboards and a bass guitar going through a Line6 Helix. The ability to control some aspects of the mixer via the DAW would be useful (like being able to add extra echos etc at certain points in the song) but not essential.

 

4. I want to be able to give FoH the option of either a full stereo mix of the whole band or individual outputs for Vocals, Bass, Stereo keyboards, Stereo Drums, depending on how much time we have available for sound checking and how many free channels the venue's PA has at multi-band gigs. Neither band has a PA (other than the one in our rehearsal room) as all the gigs we play the venues have their own in-house PA systems that we connect to.

 

5. Ideally the mixer needs to occupy no more than 2U in the rack and I should be able to mount it so that all the input and output sockets are easily accessible from the front of the rack while not hiding anything equally important on the other side of the device inside the rack itself. This is not essential though, but if I can carry on using the same 3U case that I already have, it would be a bonus.

 

What should I be looking at? Will one of the Behringer devices do everything I need?

 

Calling @EBS_freak and anyone else with detailed digital mixer knowledge.

[EBS_freak]

This is quite a difficult ask - as I suspect you want to have this running from a stage without a separate person running the desk. I think I may have an answer but let me check a few things.

[BigRedX]

Just now, EBS_freak said:

This is quite a difficult ask - as I suspect you want to have this running from a stage without a separate person running the desk. I think I may have an answer but let me check a few things.

 

Thanks for the speedy response!

 

Yes. I am happy the spend as much time as required in rehearsal setting the system up, especially now that both bands share the same dedicated rehearsal space, but once I have done this it will essentially be a set-and-forget for gigs.

 

Maybe in the future when we are "big" enough to be able to employ our own sound engineer we can re-visit this so having that in mind would be another bonus.

[EBS_freak]

Midas M32C - C(ore) - 1U brain

Midas DL32 or Behringer S32 - 32 input 16 output on XLRs. 3U

 

Or X32 Rack (3U) (or M32 core) with S16/SD8s (read on). All depends where you want your XLRs ins and outs to be. May be useful to have your inputs on stage... but you may want your outputs in one place... or on stage also. Have a look to see how the splits that work for you. Off the top of my head though, you can only split in banks of 8... so you can't just patch in the odd XLR input on one stage box for example, you have to patch them in in banks of 8

 

Comments on 1.

Can use USB connection for individual audio tracks from Mac (so could patch a L/R/Click etc) to individual tracks on X32.

If you want to, you could add a Dante card and replace USB with Dante - connection would be then a ethernet from your laptop.

 

Comments on 2.

No problem. Midas and Behringer software available for Mac.

Note - if you use Dante, you'd need to run two ethernet adapters and configure your routing appropriately.

 

Comments on 3.

Should be able to send MIDI information to the X32 - from some quick searching (this isn't what I was sure on), you have control over fader level, pan and mute and unmute states on faders. That should give you access to the automation you need from the DAW. Looks like you can do a scene recall also - so I think you may be good.

 

Comments on 4.

Use your XLR outputs on aux busses for what you want to send. These probably want to be post DSP do it sends all your FX to the front of house, as opposed to the normal prefader, pre DSP that normally gets sent.

In a dream world, every FoH would have a Dante card. Then you can give them each channel digitally over a single ethernet cable.

 

Comments on 5.

Got me beat unless you use stage boxes. Best I can do with all ports in place, or 1 u but with external stage boxes (which may cause it's own cabling nightmares... or not... depending upon what you need to do).

 

Behringer/Midas is the only thing that is coming to mind at the moment. Mackie DL32R is close - but then you have no control over MIDI so... meh.  

 

[BigRedX]

Many thanks!

 

Lots to read up on.

 

Initial look seems that on the input/output front is that everything has way too many for what I need, but I suspect this is the price to pay (literally) for all the additional functionality that is essential for my requirements?

 

Regarding stage boxes and cabling. I'm happy to have everything in one place on the stage. Most of the places my bands play are fairly small and even on the bigger stages I can simply chain XLR cables together the give me the lengths that I need. So far the biggest stages we've been on have been the O2 Leeds main stage and Rescue Rooms in Nottingham, and it's only the keyboards (2 inputs) and the vocal mic (1 input) that won't be right next to the rack on stage. I usually set up close to  suitable stage box so the outputs won't be a problem at all.

 

The MIDI spec looks a bit basic (my last digital mixer - Korg 168rc which I used in a similar way 20 years ago, was considerably more primitive in terms of technology had a much better MIDI spec). If internal mixer effects returns can be assigned to a channel fader which can be muted and unmuted over MIDI that should be a sufficient workaround.

 

Still confused as to how to use any of these devices as an audio interface from the Mac. The quick start manual for the S32 seems to imply that I need an additional interface for audio from the Mac to the mixer, as the USB socket is for firmware updates only?

 

Edit if I was to keep my existing Focusrite audio interface and use the ADAT connection out of that for audio outputs does that open up the mixer possibilities at all?

 

I also assume that I will still need a MIDI interface connected to the Mac to get the MIDI functions, and that I can't simply sent the MIDI data down the USB connection?

 

Do you have a link for the full S32 manual PDF? The quick start guide I found is VERY basic.

Edited October 27, 2021 by BigRedX

[EBS_freak]

S32 is just the preamps. It's the M32C that is doing the mixer part (or the X32)

 

Your inputs and output will be available in the ins and outs on your DAW. (Connected over USB)

 

MIDI I suspect will be via MIDI only - Im not sure you can do MIDI over USB with the X32 - but I've no experience in that area.

Edited October 27, 2021 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

This should answer your questions on the interface part and the midi implementation.

m32c.pdf

[BigRedX]

10 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

S32 is just the preamps. It's the M32C that is doing the mixer part (or the X32)

 

Right...

 

So if what I want is a single box rack-mount solution solution it's the Behringer X32 rack?

 

I take it the smaller Behringer one box rack mixers are missing one or another important feature from my original post?

[EBS_freak]

I've relooked at the XR18 - 

 

If 6 auxes is enough to send to FoH, an XR18 would do you. Theres MIDI implementation for scene change.

 

Vocals, Bass, Stereo keyboards, Stereo Drums - Do you HAVE to be stereo? It's quite rare for a venue to mix in stereo as it can sound pants depending where you stand in the venue.

 

I'm assuming that it's 1x vocal, 1x bass, L, R for keys, LR for drums, LR for backing track - so you are on 8 auxes, XR18 has 6. I know you're probably thinking you can use the main LR on your mixer for another pair of outs, but you'll need that mix bus on your own mixer to set the fx sends for each channel. On the auxes, you'll mix in the returns from those FX units. (So if you are sharing an fx unit between say the vocals and the keys, the keys fx return will be present on your vocal aux channel).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by EBS_freak

[BigRedX]

Brilliant That would probably do it!

 

Our input needs are:

 

1. Computer via USB 1 to 3 channels depending on whether we run in mono or stereo plus click when needed.

2. Two keyboards both in mono

3. Bass guitar via Helix

4. One Vocal

 

So assuming we don't need the click for this band (we will when we go IEM) we could get the output channels down to:

1. One for drums and sound effects from computer (if there were enough I'd consider splitting the drums for everything else on the backing and use two channels)

2. One for both keyboards (relative levels set by the mixer)

3. One for bass guitar

4. One for vocals

5. One spare for the click if we need it later.

 

I think the X18 Rack will do that. It also appears to have the advantage for me that all the connectors are on the "front" of the unit so I don't have to give up yet another U on the rack for a patch panel (our current system has all the outputs on the front of the rack and set up is considerably speedier because of that).

 

One final question (for now) how robust are the outputs to being presented with phantom power or will I need to invest in isolator boxes to be on the safe side?

 

[EBS_freak]

For IEMs, I'm thinking you'd have to go for an ultranet solution. You'd probably want to run those in stereo - but you still have enough inputs for that. Outputs would have to be over an ultra net solution. Analogue splits are possible, but if you start chaining desks, you are introducing further cumulative latency into the game.

 

The only issue that I think you may have, is a sound engineer having the drums come in all on channel. They like to be able separate the kick as an absolute minimum. But you know...